We have permadeath. Great! But then we have alts. Why?

[sabinati]

just a guess but the limit of characters per account is probably 2,147,483,648

[Sevenless]

just a guess but the limit of characters per account is probably 2,147,483,648

I'd think an int value would be sufficient. That being said, it depends how characters are actually stored. Fiddling with Reddwarf I know a way that would allow theoretically infinite characters. Until you run out of memory anyway xD

[sabinati]

yeah loftar is weird so who knows. he probably stores them in the file structure and i don't know what the limits there are tbh.

[mrnuggets]

There's been really interesting feedback from all of you, I'm glad for the thread.

Some see like I do how having such easy access to alts impacts the game's balance mostly negatively and how ultimately such a simple harmless thing can ruin the experience for everyone.
Among others are people that do want to have access to alts as within any video game. And I understand that. I had alts in other games myself as well.
And there are yet others yet with different intentions...


But let's imagine for a moment how fiddling with alts the way some do in Salem would apply to real-world gaming, in order to better understand there are shortcomings:


If you were to play a pen&paper RPG, with friends, and you realized your current character was unfit for what was happening in the game at the moment, would you say "GM, I don't want to risk having to lose this character, so I'm gonna switch and take my rogue character that can scout those traps and so I can get all the good loot being ahead of everyone. K dude?" It'd be akin to switching his main for an alt. In this example it would be unappropriate and be like cheating. The GM must have tried to provide a good experience for everyone involved when he prepared his game. By doing this it's not hard to understand that you'd really bend the rules for your own benefit. If you made several different characters for yourself, then fine, but you'd have to play them in another game at a different time. Otherwise, if you can switch like that, there would be no need to play with others as a group in the first place.

Similarly, if you were playing a red vs blue type tabletop wargame, and you realized you would be losing with the army you currently had, would you say: "Wait dude, this army isn't that good to fight against you. Let me pick them all up and get my shoebox with this other army I have with these X units that are über against your soldiers and also these new Y units. That way I'd be able to whoop your ass effortlessly. Yeah. Game over." It'd be akin to switching from a lesser alt you were playing with to your über main character/army, now that you know it will be safe.
Uh... What dude? Didn't we start as we did and now you want to switch armies?


You can't just discard what's troubling you at will and replace what you play with at will so that you gain an advantage in the long run.
The other guy, literally, has shown his hand AND has ONLY the one hand to play with... As it should be. Can one play with several hands in poker? I don't think so. Or in very specific games that specifically require everyone to play these different hands. There wouldn't be any point to playing any game if we all had as many hands to choose from and use as we wished.



Now, again, I do understand that there are those who use alts not for gaining an advantage over those that don't. They love to have alts because they want to see all the colors of the spectrum, try a bit of everything, never to try to gain any sort of advantage over the others and just like to enjoy their game that way. I accept and understand that.
They must understand the position of guys who think and play like me just as well, right? One world, one character, one army, one hand, or the world loses its balance.


But Salem is not like any other game. In Salem, for instance, we have permadeath...


I never had a char that died so far, but the day I do, I'd like, as anyone, to have the satisfaction to know that it was meant to be and that it was "just". As fair or as unfair as I'd really think it was. Right or wrong, it was within the rules and the guy that killed me did it with his main char as well. He knew there were risks and he took them. He knew there could be consequences for him if things turned bad. Good game, well played. Let's move on and try to live longer with the new char.

If on the opposite I pk someone myself, for whatever reason. If he turned out to be, to my knowledge or not, someone's cannon-fodder alt, or whatever, what's the point? Why did I bother and why would he? What's the impact it has on him or on the world or myself? None or minimal. We'd have all lost our time. The guy would hardly care and would have reason no to. Nothing was gained: no fun, no sense of winning/losing something. The world stays the same.


Permadeath, as I think I understand, was introduced by Seatribe as a means to give their games a new kind of balance. It forces players to rethink the way they relate to each other.
It is not like any other game. It is unique.
On the other side, so many game genres, let's take MMORPGS as an example, have so much in common, there's no point in playing one rather than the other.
But Salem aims to be different. Its community might be small right now, but it has reason to stay. And be passionate. Because it is different. Because of it is unique. Because it is not at all condescending.


So either alts and access to alts on one same server are forbidden and, if not possible, MORE than strongly discouraged and everyone understands that playing with only one char is the way to go. The game would be played as close to the way it was meant to be played as possible, I think. Permadeath and other rules within Salem would have real meaning.

Or we say that alts are accepted and thus are part of the game and define how we play and are ultimately needed by everyone. Then I'll be the first to create ten of them, split my loot between 5 of them (so there's lesser risk), experiment skills and farm with 3 others (for easier silver) and keep 2 of those pilgrims scary looking in a shirtless way so that I can act like a jackass (for lulz and loot)...



In the end, whatever the devs prefer for Salem and whatever we ourselves individually prefer, a final decision must be made about alts. Rules and the way one can experience the game have to be consistent and they vary greatly between the two approaches.

Right now It's like playing russian roulette with some guys not having any bullet in the gun at all (those that like to play with alts and play well with them) and others having all eight rounds and waiting for the moment they'll have to pull the trigger (having just their main character)...

Sorry for the long post...

tl;dr Alts, yes or no? A definitive choice has to be made so everyone can play the same.

[staxjax]

I dont think this is even up for discussion. With an unrestricted number of accounts, there will always be alt characters.

[milonti]

There's been really interesting feedback from all of you, I'm glad for the thread.
If you were to play a pen&paper RPG, with friends, and you realized your current character was unfit for what was happening in the game at the moment, would you say "GM, I don't want to risk having to lose this character, so I'm gonna switch and take my rogue character that can scout those traps and so I can get all the good loot being ahead of everyone. K dude?" It'd be akin to switching his main for an alt. In this example it would be unappropriate and be like cheating. The GM must have tried to provide a good experience for everyone involved when he prepared his game. By doing this it's not hard to understand that you'd really bend the rules for your own benefit. If you made several different characters for yourself, then fine, but you'd have to play them in another game at a different time. Otherwise, if you can switch like that, there would be no need to play with others as a group in the first place.

Similarly, if you were playing a red vs blue type tabletop wargame, and you realized you would be losing with the army you currently had, would you say: "Wait dude, this army isn't that good to fight against you. Let me pick them all up and get my shoebox with this other army I have with these X units that are über against your soldiers and also these new Y units. That way I'd be able to whoop your ass effortlessly. Yeah. Game over." It'd be akin to switching from a lesser alt you were playing with to your über main character/army, now that you know it will be safe.
Uh... What dude? Didn't we start as we did and now you want to switch armies?

Your examples actually illustrate the point of having alts. But you're kind of thinking of it wrong. In those examples, you're assuming an instantaneous switch of character, sort of like one character or army morphing into another. In the D&D example (pen and paper rpg) you DO have multiple characters for different roles. Thats why you have a party of characters rather than solo-adventurers. Each character has shortcomings that are unavoidable. There is no "one character fits all" ability in D&D.

You made the same point with the army example. But rather I present it this way: what if you had a chance to "scout" your opponent's army before you began the battle? Wouldn't you make adjustments and send out a different army to fight him with? You wouldn't (i hope) send out your same doomed army if you knew before time what the battle would entail.

While no, a GM wouldn't let you switch your character in the middle of combat, or an army in the middle of a battle, thats also a completely different type of game. Salem is made with specialization in mind. Not every character should be able to grind up every stat. Much like every other MMO, if you want to do it all by yourself, you'll need alts.

[JeffGV]

Salem is made with specialization in mind.

Actually, it doesn't seems so. There is no drawback in raising all the proficiences and getting all the skills.

Not every character should be able to grind up every stat.

As above. As long that the mechanics provide no drawback in doing so - H&H anyone? - everyone can raise all the stats he wants.

Much like every other MMO, if you want to do it all by yourself, you'll need alts.

It isn't like you need alts. You are merely using them as a workaround for permadeath and speaking as the game should work that way. Well, it shouldn't. Permadeath is useless with alts and neither is a justification for using them.
By the way, your reply to the whole D&D thing is utterly absurd. People don't play D&D alone, they play it with other people. And that's how you should play this game: with other people. And the different people should be specialized, not chars of the same person.

[TeckXKnight]

I dont think this is even up for discussion. With an unrestricted number of accounts, there will always be alt characters.

More or less this. Restricting players in any fashion might discourage a few people but overall it will not hamper alt or bot accounts. Worst yet, you'd hurt a lot of people who, say, want to play with roommates or family. While it majorly affects gameplay, you cannot restrict it. Your only hope is to incentivize having a main character.

[Shoi]

I honestly think if you disarm the alts so people can only have one character. Not going to work. They will just make MORE accounts, and don't say well one acocunt per IP. This wouldn't work either due to the fact that, oh I just reset my router new ip. Or it could be masked, altered, rerouted. That and for example you will have people who are roomies or family who possibly share a pc and what not. Fighting alts is a frivolous battle. There is NO way, what so ever, to stop alts from being created.

You will always see an abuse in this, it's in all MMO's and almost All RTS's. You name it, their probably is a group who will abuse that factor.

[sabinati]

There is NO way, what so ever, to stop alts from being created.

This. The End.

Unless you have some great idea, otherwise you're wasting your time arguing the point that they shouldn't allow alts when there's no viable way not to allow them.