Diminishing returns for artifice

[Dallane]

of course he has addressed his issue because the real issue is not that he thinks artifices are "boring" but that he does not want to put the effort in to make a high end combat set, so he wants to get those who did nerfed.

I wish there were more high end artifice rare finds or updated with purity.

[Darwoth]

sure, i can agree more stuff should be available. which is the real way to implement variety, with more choices. not by ***** on the already existing choices.

[Potjeh]

We are dealing with math here, so the buckskin might be better than the 5th snake skull, so everyone is going to have 4 snake skulls and 1 buckskin. People are going to go for the numbers. You change the numbers up with diminishing returns but someone is still going to find out the best combo and then everyone is going to slot that combo. You haven't really solved your issue.

The whole point is muddying the definition of "best" combo a bit. Sure, you could do the 4 skulls thing to max out your piercing damage. But with diminishing returns the last artifices would only give a sliver of piercing damage, so you might want to swap them out for a full benefit artifice that give piercing defence, or concussive damage or something. The idea is that you need to choose to what extent to specialize - going fully specialized would give you the best possible bonus in one area, but the lowest sum of all bonuses, and no specialization at all (ie no two of the same artifice in a set) would give you the highest sum of all bonuses, but as a jack of all trades you wouldn't be particularly good at any one thing.

Adding more artifice wouldn't do anything, we already have more than are used. Copper buttons, for example, don't look bad on paper, but in reality nobody uses them because they don't give piercing damage.

[Darwoth]

Copper buttons, for example, don't look bad on paper, but in reality nobody uses them because they don't give piercing damage.

interesting, i have 8 of them on my primary fighter.

there goes that whole experience vs having no idea what the ***** you are talking about thing again.

[jwhitehorn]

or concussive damage or something.... Copper buttons, for example, don't look bad on paper, but in reality nobody uses them.....

Holy ****.... I can understand if you yourself havn't tested it but have you completely missed the threads and posts where top players with top gear post what they have?

Concussive Damage isn't relavent.
Copper Buttons are used

Chief PeePooKaKa
MM Tribe

[Potjeh]

Oh right, forgot about common defence from buttons, was looking at blunt damage. Anyhow, I haven't seen them in any CQG equipment screens.

Point still stands, the only useful bonuses are piercing and common damage and defence, because thrust is simply the best attack there is. This has a lot to do with how you can stack so much bonuses on it. By reducing the damage stacking on it and providing more ways to stack up on other damage types, other attacks could be made useful for damage dealing.

[darnokpl]

Adding more artifice wouldn't do anything, we already have more than are used. Copper buttons, for example, don't look bad on paper, but in reality nobody uses them because they don't give piercing damage.

I was using them for insane defence, it is even better than huge dmg.

[jwhitehorn]

By reducing the damage stacking on it and providing more ways to stack up on other damage types, other attacks could be made useful for damage dealing.

No they can't. Until the combat system is completely re-visited in terms of damage scaling from the different attacks the artifice system CANNOT fix the lack of combat move diversity. Thrust with +0 Piercing Damage is more effective than ANY OTHER move with +300 in its corresponding damage type. Therefore, if you COMPLETELY REMOVED +Piercing everybody would immediately stack ONLY Defense. The other moves and other damage types would still be 100% ignored. The answer you are looking for is below:

#1: Punch/Uppercut gains a 300% increase from artifice bonus damage. Therefore, Punch would still be useless to a no-artifce character compared to thrust, however, if one were to stack correctly they could theoretically get their punch up to speed with thrust-level damage.

#2: Stomp Artifice should modify the speed in which it completes (shortened time period) not increased damage. Stacking a stomp damage type would be for a character that could stomp within .5 seconds of the thrust time.

#3: Leap-At Artifice should modify the RANGE in which your leap-at can go.

#4: Damage type needs to be implemented for guns other than "Common Combat".

#5: A Blunt Weapon needs to be introduced to open a secondary "damage dealing" alternative to piercing.

#6: More Artifice in general.

This will provide the slotting diversity you are looking for. Also we will see roles in group combat scenarios evolve and uncertainty in combat situations as to the combat capabilities of your enemy. Obviously the different "types" should utilize different proficiency bonus other than C&D which will in turn drastically change the base gear choices.

Chief PeePooKaKa
MM Tribe

[Darwoth]

Oh right, forgot about common defence from buttons, was looking at blunt damage. Anyhow, I haven't seen them in any CQG equipment screens.

Point still stands, the only useful bonuses are piercing and common damage and defence, because thrust is simply the best attack there is. This has a lot to do with how you can stack so much bonuses on it. By reducing the damage stacking on it and providing more ways to stack up on other damage types, other attacks could be made useful for damage dealing.

the more you talk the more ridiculous you sound, just stop talking out the side of your face and backpedaling for ***** sake.

here you go......

http://salemwiki.info/index.php/Category:Artifacts

as you can see the majority of artifices have the stats you have deemed to be the "only good ones" the rest are carebear artifices other than stupid **** like a lobster claw. the fact nobody stacks other damage types is due to the unfinished combat system, not a problem with the artifice system.

and even that is not entirely true, one of my fighters dual wields pistols and has common attack + punch damage stacked for melee as a backup (thanks to those copper buttons that "nobody" uses it is a viable build)

[Potjeh]

[i]#1: Punch/Uppercut gains a 300% increase from artifice bonus damage. Therefore, Punch would still be useless to a no-artifce character compared to thrust, however, if one were to stack correctly they could theoretically get their punch up to speed with thrust-level damage.

The end result here is effectively the same as my suggestion here, tightening the gap between thrust and punch. I think mine is easier to read than applying modifiers on top of artifice modifiers, but either would work.

I don't think punch should ever reach thrust DPS, though, it's advantage is that it's faster and thus harder to dodge. Though the hit box could stand to be increased a bit, getting a hit in with punch vs thrust should have a more pronounced difference.

*edit* Dual pistols, Darwoth? How are you supposed to reload in combat? I guess I can see it sort of working in group combat, but wouldn't a sabre wielder still be more useful?