Siege artifices and destruction of property

[Procne]

What about digging tunnels under the walls? You need a shovel, select a spot outside to start digging and then select a spot inside where the exit would be. Phlegm and time costs depending on the distance between the two. Possibly some items needed, like supports or lamps. Building it doesn't trigger crime debuff (assuming digging started outside claim), but using it to enter someone's claim does. Moving between two entrances would also take some time depending on distance, but slower than walking. Only one player can use it at a time. If braziers activate they can shoot at any tunnel entrance that is in their range, but it should take some time to destroy it this way. Entrance's HP should be visible to anyone. If one entrance is destroyed, and a player is inside - he will exit from the other entrance. If both entrances are destroyed then player is killed. Of course players can destroy entrances in standard way.

Protection from this, for villages, is to simply have claims extend far outside the walls. This way, tunneling would require you to start digging on claim, which would automatically give you crime debuff, and activate braziers. Noob camps can also use this kind of protection, but costs of making large enough claim would be prohibitive.

[Dallane]

What about digging tunnels under the walls? You need a shovel, select a spot outside to start digging and then select a spot inside where the exit would be. Phlegm and time costs depending on the distance between the two. Possibly some items needed, like supports or lamps. Building it doesn't trigger crime debuff (assuming digging started outside claim), but using it to enter someone's claim does. Moving between two entrances would also take some time depending on distance, but slower than walking. Only one player can use it at a time. If braziers activate they can shoot at any tunnel entrance that is in their range, but it should take some time to destroy it this way. Entrance's HP should be visible to anyone. If one entrance is destroyed, and a player is inside - he will exit from the other entrance. If both entrances are destroyed then player is killed. Of course players can destroy entrances in standard way.

Protection from this, for villages, is to simply have claims extend far outside the walls. This way, tunneling would require you to start digging on claim, which would automatically give you crime debuff, and activate braziers. Noob camps can also use this kind of protection, but costs of making large enough claim would be prohibitive.

Would work alot better if mines worked like they did in hnh

[iotuegli]

words

oh god, inc newbs with 25 cloak and dagger wall climbing skill summoning everyone and stealing everything.

system is mostly fine how it is, currently if you have a town bell your attackers are forced to fight you if you so choose which is about 500 times better than a ***** slinking around when your offline to summon you or steal your **** that you had no chance of defense against.

wall climbing also firmly puts the balance of the game entirely into the zerg factions, if they have to work through defense a smaller group of defenders has a chance at repelling them, if 15 russians can just rush your walls at the same time because they can climb over them and zerg the defenders in 20 seconds it pretty well ***** up the game.

i have to agree with that... that will broke the game if any1 can climb your walls without any harm or risk and summon-kill you while you're offline

What about digging tunnels under the walls? You need a shovel, select a spot outside to start digging and then select a spot inside where the exit would be. Phlegm and time costs depending on the distance between the two. Possibly some items needed, like supports or lamps. Building it doesn't trigger crime debuff (assuming digging started outside claim), but using it to enter someone's claim does. Moving between two entrances would also take some time depending on distance, but slower than walking. Only one player can use it at a time. If braziers activate they can shoot at any tunnel entrance that is in their range, but it should take some time to destroy it this way. Entrance's HP should be visible to anyone. If one entrance is destroyed, and a player is inside - he will exit from the other entrance. If both entrances are destroyed then player is killed. Of course players can destroy entrances in standard way.

Protection from this, for villages, is to simply have claims extend far outside the walls. This way, tunneling would require you to start digging on claim, which would automatically give you crime debuff, and activate braziers. Noob camps can also use this kind of protection, but costs of making large enough claim would be prohibitive.

Would work alot better if mines worked like they did in hnh

how it worked in HnH? are tie mines on the same "world" and being connectables? i assume that could be a good idea... for stealth attacks from underneath

however diggin a hole to reach the claim from under at least mustn't take braziers fire to you (unless you are out the tunnel) and have some sort of map like a mine, where you have to dig the next tile to advance

[Dallane]

Mines in hnh were all connected. You have the world layer and then mine layers 1-5. If you didn't have your mine protected in hnh someone could dig a hole outside your base and dig into your base.

[Potjeh]

Explicit stealth and vandalism modes are nice and all, but there have been other threads for them and they're not really the topic here.

Anyway, I think I picked a bad word for describing the first set of artifice, because stealth implies avoiding triggering the braziers in the first place. What I really meant with them is that you trigger braziers as normal, you're just a lot more resilient to them and you take very little max humour damage. In essence, your range gets a multiplier. So no, you couldn't really use low humour alts to assassinate someone if he has a well-defended base, because a high multiplier still doesn't get you much when you have low base values.

As for the vandalism artifice, I think people who talked about them reducing brazier damage are missing the point. The problem is that base destruction is too easy currently, which is bad for player retention. The underlying reason for this is the asymmetry of resource investment in constructing a base and destroying it. We can achieve this symmetry by balancing the time investment for building up defences with the time investment needed to recover from the max humour loss from destroying these defences. If the latter is equal to or greater than the former, we'll see a lot less complete obliteration, because the high cost will make these vandals' humours fall way back behind the humours of common thieves. So yeah, vandalism artifice protecting against brazier is counterproductive, the idea is to enforce their use for destroying stuff so you can't use stealth artifice to raze bases with impunity. This enforcement is in making destruction of other people's property without a good vandal set about as practical as eating soup with a fork.

Oh, and I almost forgot about how this system I proposed is exploitable with gear switching. Hell, I can see people macroing it to the point where they automatically equip the stealth gear just before a brazier salvo and switching it back to vandalism right after it, so they get full benefits of both. I reckon the best thing to do here would be to make it impossible to change clothes when you have a crime debuff.

[darnokpl]

As for the vandalism artifice, I think people who talked about them reducing brazier damage are missing the point. The problem is that base destruction is too easy currently, which is bad for player retention...

Well if you wear clothes with reduce-brazier-fire-artifacts then you will be weak in combat, so it is not bad

... I reckon the best thing to do here would be to make it impossible to change clothes when you have a crime debuff.

+1 for this, should work same if you are in combat even without crime debuff.

[Potjeh]

Well if you wear clothes with reduce-brazier-fire-artifacts then you will be weak in combat, so it is not bad

That's only relevant if there's defenders online, and having active guards 24/7 really shouldn't be a requirement if the game wants to expand it's demographics beyond the unemployed people with no social lives.

[darnokpl]

Well if you wear clothes with reduce-brazier-fire-artifacts then you will be weak in combat, so it is not bad

That's only relevant if there's defenders online, and having active guards 24/7 really shouldn't be a requirement if the game wants to expand it's demographics beyond the unemployed people with no social lives.

Waste-claim warning 24h long is ok I guess, totem-bash-window 4h right now is not best idea, but maybe that is not a problem, what if raiders would have limited raid-window like 2 or4 hours and after that waste-claim is gone? And to continue raid raiders would have to drop another totem?

[Dallane]

there should a wait time between switching cloths. It should also be disabled while in combat or with a crime debuff.