Anger towards the noobs

[iambobthepirate]

just an idea

suppose rights of englishmen and story of cain and able were both implemented like swimming or wandering, meaning they would have to be toggled on and off in order to use them, and some sort of visual cue was implemented such that one could recongnize when a player had story of cain and able toggled on or off.

it could be as simple as the red square turning color.

also if toggling either would have a slight delay (say a few seconds) it would allow for more social interaction imo.

[Ullin]

Perhaps expanding the claim of boston to give noobs some more space to skip and run and play? Not by a lot but just enough so that they dont have to leave the claim to collect tutorial items.

I know this is a permadeath game.... that is why I am playing it. However, like previously stated it is not super intuitive unless you are familiar with HnH or have spent hours looking over the wiki or vids on Youtube. I have spent a lot of time following this game (back when the forums were on the Paradox forums around when CKII was in development) and have read the wiki (many times) and watched all of the youtube vids(many of which had the old UI) and I still felt lost when I logged into the game for the first time.

Maybe have the tutorial say "don't get too attached, many do not survive long". Because there are a lot of people that play games just because they are new; you need some player base to make money or else the servers will be shut down; and I want to play in a game that is populated but not crowded.

Please flame at will, I can handle it.

[MagicManICT]

Maybe just assuming everyone you meet can murder you would be safest? I really don't see the purpose of the toggle. If it prevents you from being attacked, it's just another tool to grief with when a town can spawn enough alts to wall you in. If it's as some sort of sign of "friendship," what would keep someone from quickly flipping it on when you are unsuspecting?

[hektor37]

you need some player base to make money or else the servers will be shut down; and I want to play in a game that is populated but not crowded.

I think this is the moot point of this game. It seems to me that the game's economy is largely based on cricket, pelt and cloth grinding, to introduce new currency (silvers) into the system. This has to equal the money sink items and procedures that are taking currency out of the system or the economy stagnates. I think this game needs to be user-friendly to noobs at least to the point where they can grind new currency into the system.

That being I suppose if you have a closed community where the murdered players become to the new currency grinders. Frankly, I just don't see that being a very big gaming community. My conjecture is the average player will likely stop playing after he/she looses their main to a murder, because its just to much to grind all those skills back. Hence, the need for more new people being introduced into the game.

The alternative is botting for silver which is usually against most TOS (I didn't read it), or everyone cricket grinds.

[Ullin]

you need some player base to make money or else the servers will be shut down; and I want to play in a game that is populated but not crowded.

I think this is the moot point of this game. It seems to me that the game's economy is largely based on cricket, pelt and cloth grinding, to introduce new currency (silvers) into the system. This has to equal the money sink items and procedures that are taking currency out of the system or the economy stagnates. I think this game needs to be user-friendly to noobs at least to the point where they can grind new currency into the system.

That being I suppose if you have a closed community where the murdered players become to the new currency grinders. Frankly, I just don't see that being a very big gaming community. My conjecture is the average player will likely stop playing after he/she looses their main to a murder, because its just to much to grind all those skills back. Hence, the need for more new people being introduced into the game.

The alternative is botting for silver which is usually against most TOS (I didn't read it), or everyone cricket grinds.

Sorry you miss understood me. I was talking about real money not game money/silvers

[Kdense]

Once again I dont want to be possibly "spamming" or anything but I have alot of videos about this game, and one of them is "how to survive", there are a lot of different things about this game that arent typical to most games. but my youtube channel is youtube.com/eegorevids if you are interested.

While I have found these youtube tutorials and the wiki extremely helpful, I kind of feel like having to spend hours watching videos and reading stuff just to get my feet wet in a game is a little counter intuitive for game longevity. This game has strong bones and so often games fail because there is either a lack of time devoted to glaring problems or developers are unwilling to listen to valid concerns of their audience. Youtube should not be a requirement for this game.

First, yes there are plenty of nice players... we are just hiding for fear of being killed ourselves. Note of advice for new players...don't leave Boston on foot. Use Boston to find what you need to get the silver and skills to get an NPC homestead. Then use that to gain further and find a more permanent place to live.

I understand the whole 'death' thing. But, I think they like in real life there should be strict consequences for being a criminal. Not that criminals should have fear too. If I get killed, all the currently in place ways of dealing with that (i.e. you can go find clues leading to your killer's homestead) require me to not be dead.

I'm not advocating to take the killing out of the game or the perma death. But, the major problems I see are this.
1) New players are simply one more type of game hunting. It is hard to get your feet planted at all or even level enough to defend yourself if you land in a populated area on your 'free homestead". I have started many characters just to see more of the map and 3 of them have landed right in someone else's developing area and they are resentful and once I have been run out and once killed.

2) Some players do not want to run around killing other people. I am in love with this game because of the trade and sandbox style development in it. I have no interest in the PvP. The bad part is, I am forced to devote resources to 'combat' even for the most basic level of self defense. There is no immediate self defense against other players and if you choose to pursue things like literacy and settlement before learning to kill you are essentially penalized in the game. There should be some basic self defense in the game which doesn't require devoting large resources to defense against other players. Not asking for full out combat by default, just a few defensive skills.

3) I have played on both the Jamestown and Boston servers and the Boston server is obviously filled with more 'seasoned' players. My experience on the Boston server has been very hostile and as a new player it's hard to get past the first few skills without finding yourself hunted by another player because they notice you are close to their land. Jamestown is a much friendlier server in my experience with players either not as interested in killing others or spread out enough that you can hide easily.


To say it again, I'm not against the perma death or PvP as I realize that's part of the game. But PvP that is designed to favor experienced players is a system I have seen fail in many MMO games. Most MMO games have a tiered PvP system to insure that 'low level' (or in this case less 'educated') players don't become hunted for sport. I would also like to see a hostile vs. friendly indicator. I like to get to know my in game neighbors but approaching to say hi is taking your life into your hands. It would be nice to be able to tell if that person is a deep woods hermit sitting on his porch with a shot gun or a friendly neighbor.

My last large complaint with the current 'attack system' is the mechanics of fighting anything is finicky at best. There are many times when I'm out hunting bunnies and i'll be facing the bunny and then thrust to kill it and for whatever reason my player stabs in the complete opposite direction of the way I am facing. Until this is fixed the frustration of facing your mortality is compounded by the fact that even under the best circumstances combat is unpredictable at best.

Also, I do think that new players who have no experience from H&H really have no idea what to do. They don't even understand how to click on a tree correctly to pick branches. This could be solved by a very simple right/left click tutorial in the character creation area. Maybe how to pluck branches, build a fire, and start the fire. Maybe even cook a piece of meat to get the functions of recipes. Of course all with instructions saying how they will have to gain skills to pluck branches, kill rabbits, etc.

This is very true. I feel like the developers are working under the assumption that only HnH players will be their audience. I for one found HnH AFTER finding salem and found this game VERY difficult to learn without having the wiki open on my other screen and easy access to Youtube at all times. There should be a tutorial from the moment you arrive in your city through getting to your lean and starting your life. I would also suggest that during the tutorial players are immune to death. Let the player get to their lean, perhaps have base skills start at like 100 and have the first assignment to be collecting things and raising your Gathering skill to 200. Then how to pick some berries and grass and perhaps build a barrel so you learn how to build something. Upon completing the tutorial you would get your skills to increase to the 500 max level and you could start your life.

Also, just wondering here, but what if you could only be ko'd and not killed unless you've committed a crime and the killer is tracking you (or summons you or you are ko'd on their property)? That could solve the carebears issues with the harsh environment as well. I do wish the game was just a bit safer so that some of us didn't have to play alone because we can't trust anyone...ever...lol. Just a thought.

I don't have an issue with dying, I just don't feel like the current system has a level playing ground for fighting. You are essentially a sitting duck unless you decide to devote a lot of time and resources to fighting on the off chance you might get attacked. I have no desire to ever kill or rob anyone in this game and if not for the fear of getting killed, I wouldn't be leveling any player fighting skills.

[MagicManICT]

While I have found these youtube tutorials and the wiki extremely helpful, I kind of feel like having to spend hours watching videos and reading stuff just to get my feet wet in a game is a little counter intuitive for game longevity. This game has strong bones and so often games fail because there is either a lack of time devoted to glaring problems or developers are unwilling to listen to valid concerns of their audience. Youtube should not be a requirement for this game.

It's not. There's nothing in this game that, with a core of basic knowledge on how mechanics function, you can't figure out on your own within a few minutes of being presented with a new skill. There are a few things with some skills that may not be immediately obvious (such as what is a sawbuck used for and how exactly to use it when you get carpentry), and there should be a short message in game saying what you can do and how when you pick up the skill. The tools to add that to the game are there. (As an aside, games from companies like CCP and Adventurine have had very complex learning curves with few tutorials and yet they have been able to maintain a very stable user base. Don't assume that because a game doesn't walk you through every single process it's "doomed to failure" and "devs don't listen".)

[Kdense]

While I have found these youtube tutorials and the wiki extremely helpful, I kind of feel like having to spend hours watching videos and reading stuff just to get my feet wet in a game is a little counter intuitive for game longevity. This game has strong bones and so often games fail because there is either a lack of time devoted to glaring problems or developers are unwilling to listen to valid concerns of their audience. Youtube should not be a requirement for this game.

It's not. There's nothing in this game that, with a core of basic knowledge on how mechanics function, you can't figure out on your own within a few minutes of being presented with a new skill. There are a few things with some skills that may not be immediately obvious (such as what is a sawbuck used for and how exactly to use it when you get carpentry), and there should be a short message in game saying what you can do and how when you pick up the skill. The tools to add that to the game are there. (As an aside, games from companies like CCP and Adventurine have had very complex learning curves with few tutorials and yet they have been able to maintain a very stable user base. Don't assume that because a game doesn't walk you through every single process it's "doomed to failure" and "devs don't listen".)

With all due respect, I am a long time gamer with a fairly good grasp in not only game mechanics but overall computer workings and I am telling you as someone who never played HnH and sumbled upon this game that the game is NOT intuitive and there is a lot that is not easily figured out without using outside help.

If you are looking to go commercial with this game and make money then it seems to me that you'd want to bring as many players in as possible. I feel that for this situation I am very representative of the 'everyman' because I am not part of the population that came from HnH. I'm not saying that hand holding should extend indefinitely but having it be an option would allow for a wider player base in this game.

Ultimately with the complexity of this game as a complete newcomer combined with the fact that it's a free to play with in-game store it seems without some changes to really up your audience you are making a very time consuming and expensive equivalent of an iTunes app, meaning that's the amount of revenue I would see you bringing in from the game.

I enjoy this game, there are minor problems with it. If feedback isn't able to be received without it being taken personal then this game will struggle. ALL successful games have to compromise their vision with catering to the widest audience to make it financially viable. Feedback cannot always just be limited to programming malfunctions. Sometimes in games you have to go beyond what you think is 'reasonable' to bring in the money throwing crowd of otherwise unintelligent gamers.

Even the most simple out of the box games have extensive tutorials that annoy the crap out of you. Even SimCity has a long tutorial about how to place a building... how hard is it to select building and click... It's safe to say that Salem has more in-depth mechanics than a game like SimCity and yet there is virtually no walk through. Something as simple as having the 'buy' button glow when you have to learn your first skill would honestly go a long a way.

[MagicManICT]

Don't know about you, but I think in-game tutorials suck horribly. I've not ran across a good one yet. I much rather pick up a good manual and give it a good skimming before diving into the game with reading over core sections when necessary. (My opinion: too many publishers want to save a buck by eliminating paper from packaging. Kudos on the "green" side, but it's crap for making a good, in-depth game.) A lot of us players have put in a lot of time developing tools and texts for players.