Salem Economy, the now and the future.

[DangerousLee]

I see no reason they won't be trading the same things they do now, I expect wagons to have huuuge capacity. Of course, there isn't really that much of a need for trade right now, but that's a separate issue.

I can't see them trading low values goods if they had to run for 15-30 minutes to deliver them. Or use wagons, which would probably cost 10x more than goods themselves. Add to it the risk factor. I can already see griefers like chief camping outside trade hubs and intercepting all merchants. A guy in a wagon would be as easy prey as some afk-er. Escort for the wagon you say? Even more effort needed to conduct the trade.

It would simply be easier, faster and safer to make such items yourself than to buy them.

The only reason trading in H&H worked was because of the teleports between villages.

Potjeh is spot on and sees what I am talking about. As for the raiders blocking roads, yes it will happen and that's what is nice about it (More fun for raiders, less bored players having fun destroying your claim because there is nothing else to do). You would have risk come into play and that would increase the value of goods the farther they are from Boston (If they are meant to be exported). Tell me how a gang of raiders would do to stop all trade on a road for 24h? I am serious, just tell me. Roads would not be blocked permanently as I see it, and it would only create a new job, that of getting rid of raiders on roads. Furthermore, you would have created an incentive for an alternative road to exist to avoid that sector. There is also more to that than you are thinking. I see that you seem to think only one step ahead. You have to take a step back and analyze the whole situation.

Suppose a road gets blocked by raiders, they get the loot alright.. but they have to travel back to their base (no more teleport of goods!), they have to pay their claim upkeep and if they kill trade in a sector (say near their camp), then they hurt themselves too, because cash will stop to flow in their area and thus other towns/raider groups will have more money than them to buy the cool stuff in a thread to come...

For the various trade incentives I have a couple ideas that I think would do the trick. Those will be posted in Towns &Claims, Professions and purity sections mostly.

The 10-15 min is pure speculation from you, we have no idea how they are willing to implement the wagons and stuff if they do, it could be like 3-5 times faster than walking or it could act as local teleport between connected cities with possibility of interruptions if raiders have criminal act and are on the road... That is yet to be seen.

[DangerousLee]

You made observations, wrote wall of text, but I'm still missing the point - what is wrong with the current system, and why/how the changes proposed would make it better.

The problem with the current system is manifold.

1- No need for money or not enough -> No economy going. (Trade in cities with shops, stalls bargains, etc.)
Solution: Find ideas of why people would want loads of money and what they can do with it. (Coming in other threads)

2- Distance is irrelevant to trade, everything is happening in Boston (where "everything" is almost nothing) -> No need for player-run towns
Solution: Restrict teleport to "empty inventory" only, thus the goods do not travel at light speed and distance has a meaning + have goods that are valuable only at Boston (Exports) therefore the goods must travel.

3- Everything I can craft, you can craft -> Everyone does his little things and nothing gets traded -> boring.
Solution : Create value on goods depending on purity/quality (affected be the crafter), that is having professions where it makes very hard for someone to be good everywhere (specialization). Discussed in an upcoming thread on professions.

I hope you see what is broken now and what should be changed.

[Procne]

Potjeh is spot on and sees what I am talking about. As for the raiders blocking roads, yes it will happen and that's what is nice about it (More fun for raiders, less bored players having fun destroying your claim because there is nothing else to do). You would have risk come into play and that would increase the value of goods the farther they are from Boston (If they are meant to be exported).

It would not increase the value of goods, but the costs of trade. Building road, building shops, building defences, building wagons. Risking raids. What goods are worth all this effort? None.

Tell me how a gang of raiders would do to stop all trade on a road for 24h? I am serious, just tell me. Roads would not be blocked permanently as I see it, and it would only create a new job, that of getting rid of raiders on roads. Furthermore, you would have created an incentive for an alternative road to exist to avoid that sector. There is also more to that than you are thinking. I see that you seem to think only one step ahead. You have to take a step back and analyze the whole situation.

Mister chief writes a bot to stand on the road and monitor for people passing by. It spots a trader, chief logs into his raiding char which stands on the road and bam. Kill the scout you say? You just added making hearthvault and learning murder to the prerequisites for opening shop. New job for protecting roads? Building more roads? Hello, Earth to Lee, we only want to trade some lime and hay now and then.

Suppose a road gets blocked by raiders, they get the loot alright.. but they have to travel back to their base (no more teleport of goods!), they have to pay their claim upkeep and if they kill trade in a sector (say near their camp), then they hurt themselves too, because cash will stop to flow in their area and thus other towns/raider groups will have more money than them to buy the cool stuff in a thread to come...

Raiders don't care. They will get enough loot from raiding villages anyway. And it's not that they don't work the fields themselves.

The 10-15 min is pure speculation from you, we have no idea how they are willing to implement the wagons and stuff if they do, it could be like 3-5 times faster than walking or it could act as local teleport between connected cities with possibility of interruptions if raiders have criminal act and are on the road... That is yet to be seen.

It's not pure speculation, there were roads and wagons in H&H. As far as I know nobody used those.
And I think 10-15 minutes is optimistic here. How many villages are willing to do all stuff required to open a shop? Did you see how big the world is? Also, newbies who happen to spawn far away from any trade hub will have no chance to trade?

[Procne]

You made observations, wrote wall of text, but I'm still missing the point - what is wrong with the current system, and why/how the changes proposed would make it better.

The problem with the current system is manifold.

1- No need for money or not enough -> No economy going. (Trade in cities with shops, stalls bargains, etc.)
Solution: Find ideas of why people would want loads of money and what they can do with it. (Coming in other threads)

Money is just a currency. There doesn't have to be a "need" for it. Just like pearls or "points" were the currency in H&H. You can easily do the barter trade, but silver is more handy

2- Distance is irrelevant to trade, everything is happening in Boston (where "everything" is almost nothing) -> No need for player-run towns
Solution: Restrict teleport to "empty inventory" only, thus the goods do not travel at light speed and distance has a meaning + have goods that are valuable only at Boston (Exports) therefore the goods must travel.

Thanks to distance being irrelevant small trade is possible. And who said there is no need for player-run towns. Wherever people want to play together there is the need.

3- Everything I can craft, you can craft -> Everyone does his little things and nothing gets traded -> boring.
Solution : Create value on goods depending on purity/quality (affected be the crafter), that is having professions where it makes very hard for someone to be good everywhere (specialization). Discussed in an upcoming thread on professions.

Just because I can craft something doesn't mean I don't want to buy it. Higher level players don't have time, or don't want to perform certain tasks. Like hay collecting, lime quarrying, iron smelting. They can easily do that, but they prefer to buy it, and spend saved time on doing something else - something they can sell or use for better profit.

[DangerousLee]

Potjeh is spot on and sees what I am talking about. As for the raiders blocking roads, yes it will happen and that's what is nice about it (More fun for raiders, less bored players having fun destroying your claim because there is nothing else to do). You would have risk come into play and that would increase the value of goods the farther they are from Boston (If they are meant to be exported).

It would not increase the value of goods, but the costs of trade. Building road, building shops, building defences, building wagons. Risking raids. What goods are worth all this effort? None.

You are right that currently no goods fit the description and that it would not work currently. But, if you introduce purity of forageables and that those forageables happen to be far from Boston (like a beaver skin) and that it has 70%+ purity. Then it could sell for 100 or more silver at Boston. Of course they would need to have the price changed because of purity, but do you see my point? If they introduce more exportable goods to Boston, you get something going, given that people want more money.

Tell me how a gang of raiders would do to stop all trade on a road for 24h? I am serious, just tell me. Roads would not be blocked permanently as I see it, and it would only create a new job, that of getting rid of raiders on roads. Furthermore, you would have created an incentive for an alternative road to exist to avoid that sector. There is also more to that than you are thinking. I see that you seem to think only one step ahead. You have to take a step back and analyze the whole situation.

Mister chief writes a bot to stand on the road and monitor for people passing by. It spots a trader, chief logs into his raiding char which stands on the road and bam. Kill the scout you say? You just added making hearthvault and learning murder to the prerequisites for opening shop. New job for protecting roads? Building more roads? Hello, Earth to Lee, we only want to trade some lime and hay now and then.

And Mister chief does not sleep, nor does he have a life... I like your imagination. Who said we would trade lime and hay, that is how it is now, but I think ahead and I can imagine that items with a higher value will be introduced or items that are demanded by players in an area will rise in price, thus creating a trade opportunity.

Suppose a road gets blocked by raiders, they get the loot alright.. but they have to travel back to their base (no more teleport of goods!), they have to pay their claim upkeep and if they kill trade in a sector (say near their camp), then they hurt themselves too, because cash will stop to flow in their area and thus other towns/raider groups will have more money than them to buy the cool stuff in a thread to come...

Raiders don't care. They will get enough loot from raiding villages anyway. And it's not that they don't work the fields themselves.

They would probably continue their dirty stuff, but in the long run they basically create a hole around themselves and nothing ever good comes out of a hole. Or at some point the town and villagers could be so pissed off by those that they gang rush their place and make them pay good.

The 10-15 min is pure speculation from you, we have no idea how they are willing to implement the wagons and stuff if they do, it could be like 3-5 times faster than walking or it could act as local teleport between connected cities with possibility of interruptions if raiders have criminal act and are on the road... That is yet to be seen.

It's not pure speculation, there were roads and wagons in H&H. As far as I know nobody used those.
And I think 10-15 minutes is optimistic here. How many villages are willing to do all stuff required to open a shop? Did you see how big the world is? Also, newbies who happen to spawn far away from any trade hub will have no chance to trade?

Noobs will find their way and stay near villages to make some money to start their own settlements. I can imagine that a lot of people would more than enjoy carrying stuff from town to town, making deals and money along the way.

[Procne]

And Mister chief does not sleep, nor does he have a life... I like your imagination.

He does, but he spends, let's say, 6h per day in game. Plus he has friends with whom he shared his bot.

Who said we would trade lime and hay, that is how it is now, but I think ahead and I can imagine that items with a higher value will be introduced or items that are demanded by players in an area will rise in price, thus creating a trade opportunity.

What's wrong with trading lime and hay? Those are perfect examples of goods meant for trading. Not everyone has easy access to those and you need a lot of those. Plus, they are great way for noobs to make some money.

Why is your idea of trade centered only around high value, rare goods? In many games most trade is done between high and low level players where the latter ones sell basic resources and the former sell tools / components / high quality stuff.

They would probably continue their dirty stuff, but in the long run they basically create a hole around themselves and nothing ever good comes out of a hole. Or at some point the town and villagers could be so pissed off by those that they gang rush their place and make them pay good.

As we can clearly see that in Plymouth right now.
Those villagers can also be so pissed that they simply move to another server or just stop playing.

Noobs will find their way and stay near villages to make some money to start their own settlements. I can imagine that a lot of people would more than enjoy carrying stuff from town to town, making deals and money along the way.

They will find their way? They get lost after travelling for 5 minutes away from their lean-to.
Starting a trading hub basically means coming to forum and saying "hey guys, we have a village here and we trade stuff, so that there is a lot to steal. Come and rob us!".
I am pretty sure that most of those "a lot of people" would quickly stop enjoying carrying stuff and stop trading at all.

[MagicManICT]

I can't see them trading low values goods if they had to run for 15-30 minutes to deliver them.

You haven't played EVE Online, have you? People would dedicate massive funds to trade by hauling items out from empire space to nullsec so they could keep things running. A typical round trip could only take a short time, but setup could take hours and several dedicated characters, and some runs could take an hour or more. (I'm not even going to mention the masochists that fly freighters on an hour or two long trip just for a few million in profit just between the empire trade hubs.)

[Procne]

I can't see them trading low values goods if they had to run for 15-30 minutes to deliver them.

You haven't played EVE Online, have you? People would dedicate massive funds to trade by hauling items out from empire space to nullsec so they could keep things running. A typical round trip could only take a short time, but setup could take hours and several dedicated characters, and some runs could take an hour or more. (I'm not even going to mention the masochists that fly freighters on an hour or two long trip just for a few million in profit just between the empire trade hubs.)

I have played EVE only a little. From what I understand they hauled those items because required resources weren't available in null sec, or because extracting them there was too expensive/dangerous? So no other alternative for obtaining them. Also, these were prepared by high-end players and transported in massive quantities, am I correct? It's all nice and dandy, but what about small trade? New players don't have resources required to build a wagon and protect it, and even if they did - how much lime would they need to transport to make the trade profitable?

How much harder can you make trading, before people figure out that hunting crickets is much more efficient way of making money?
And running a bot for lime / hay is much easier / convinient than buying those at high prices?

[MagicManICT]

You are correct in that many of those items weren't available out there, which is why they had to be hauled. You could say the same concept could be in place for Salem, too, but so far I haven't seen it. (There is the choice of settling in the middle of a very large forest with no other biome within a 30 minute walk distance... I might get frustrated with that quickly if I wanted to go pick grass.)

There was plenty of "local trade" by smaller players, too, hauling items from smaller stations to the trade hubs for those too lazy to make the 5-10 minute round trip themselves (could make more blowing up a few more ships during that 5-10 minutes). The same concept could apply to Salem if the "regional" powerhouse decides to just work on higher end industries (such as mining and farming) and let the newbie population settled nearby do the foraging and hunting.

So far, I think the dynamic(s) that has prevented these sorts of trade practices is player trust (or rather the lack of it) and lack of player population and little to do with actual mechanics.

[ImpalerWrG]

Only way I can see people EVER doing overland trade in Salem is if Boston traveling falls out of the nerf tree and hits every nerf branch on the way down. Something like a lock-out cooldown so you can travel to Boston only once an hour or so, AND it requires some resource expenditure to go (like wine from H&H), and you have to pay taxes of 10% on all your sales (no idea how that would be done). IF all that existed I MIGHT, just might consider trading with my closest neighbor assuming they are super generous and less then 5 minutes away.

Now I'm not saying whats good or bad or saying anything SHOULD get nerfed but everyone that says that Boston travel kills over-land and even over-water trade is completely correct.