Poverty in America

[Flame]

The reason why i don't like this topic is simple. I'm used to think "Then, what solution would you suggest/What can we do?". That's the way a debating should be to have some use.
And what i see from the attitude here is only one choice: Erase a right and remove the actual system. Without replace it with something improved.

I've seen this long enough to get bored of it. From ancient history to modern history, this topic have been debated again and again without much deep care.

If you have some smart idea on how remove criminality from people (so, also from poor people), come and talk.
The fact that poor people have more chance to steal, is just because they are human, so you and me aren't in any way different. If i were poor there would be an higher chance that i would steal. Same is for you. So is not a problem regarding the "poor people". Is a problem regarding The Humans.
So, the criminality can't be "fixed" with or without a card for food.

Waste your time focusing on something that can't be solved is flat and time consuming. Plus, is dangerous, because the only "idea" would be to "remove any right to poor people", so that they steal something different from your money. They would steal something you care less. Like if "your money" is what really count, afterall.

Come here with an idea on how improve the system and grant the same rights to poor and rich people. An improvement for everyones, for who pay taxes and who need food, in a way that not a single cent is wasted in criminal hands.
Otherwise, don't waste your time reminding that humans steal often or few, depending on education, life, needs. That's something we already know and is of no use.

[toddesloan]

Poverty in America???

The Poor in the US Are Richer than the Middle Class in Much of Europe

The US has higher poverty rates, but that says very little about the actual living standards of the poor. The poor have higher incomes in the US in real terms in most cases. The average poor American household has luxuries like air conditioning, cable TV, and Xbox video game consoles. Poor families struggle to make ends meet, but in most cases, they are struggling to pay for air conditioning and the cable TV bill as well as to put food on the table. Their living standards are far different from the images of dire deprivation promoted by activists and the mainstream media...

[Flame]

Homeless, tod.
Homeless.
Search the homeless number, since "poor" is a range between 0 and 500.

[Inotdead]

The fact that poor people have more chance to steal, is just because they are human, so you and me aren't in any way different. If i were poor there would be an higher chance that i would steal. Same is for you. So is not a problem regarding the "poor people". Is a problem regarding The Humans.

This is the same ***** argument Claeyt uses and it has little to do with everyday reality. If you live in a first world country and you don't have money - you go find a ***** job and suddenly you have money! Oh golly wonder! Even slaving away at minimum wage should have all your expenses covered unless you have some circumstances - like drug addicted or sick family members.

The reason why there are so many people in poverty in those countries is that because many simply do not want to work. When I first came to Germany I was really amused that the welfare (Hartz IV) my mother was receiving was the same amount if not higher as she was getting at work at our old place, whereas the costs for basic necessities were roughly about the same. Even more so since the state does pay some of your bills.

What I am getting at is that the common mentality among people who got on welfare is "Why bother working if I can get a bit less in money from the state, but have all the time in the world at my leisure?". In many cases people develop a kind of "tunnel vision" or "safe space" where they get used to it so much that they start considering not working normal and go great lengths just to avoid doing it at all costs. And this is where the **** starts hitting the fan - if you ever go to the welfare institution you'd be amazing how many people think they are ENTITLED to receive money from the state for doing nothing.

I know there are lots of people who endure hardships even in the first world - because that is life, and then there are those who are driven by desperation, but none of those justifies ignoring a large demographic who live the life on welfare and petty crime because they chose to.
Hell, I knew a family, where parents gave birth to 8+ kids just because it made them eligible for a big apartment (rent payed for by the state) and lots of money (Hartz IV + Kindergeld). Is that human nature you are talking about, desperation that justifies everything? Bringing children in the world without a single grain of care just to satisfy your own needs?

[Flame]

I don't give a fech if clayet says the same things, since i'm aware that we don't share the same perspective and reasoning. I don't need to be right, what i need to do is just show what reality is, which usually is the mix between me and the one i'm talking with.


Think a little about it. I was wondering before: "If i were a homeless without a job, how should i plan my life to get off this poverty?"

The actual society have a "problem". Strict Rules.
You can't simply "get a job".
Can you "have a job" without a house? I wonder how the actual society would react in front of a dirty, stinky homeless with a long beard that ask for a job.
A laugh or a moan. Either way, you have to find an angel somewhere willing to give you a job. Statistically would be 1 over thousands, so the society should not rely on that angel.

Then i could decide to leave the society and just be a savage, so that i don't need money from the society. Hunt, build a tent, die for illness 'cuz stuff happens. But i can't. There is no place like "land of no one". Everywhere i can reach with my foots, is private land. I don't want to be a criminal, so i'm not going to take a train withoyt pay.

Should i Hide in the city, in a park, hoping that no one sees me? It would not work, too many humans around. I don't have a RV. I don't have a land. Neither animals with me. And i've born in the west side of the world, so i don't eat dogs or cats. Plus, someone could kill me if they sees me eat those, or i would end up in the jail.
Ok. No "free savage life" then. The society pretend that i live in That society, afterall. Then i need food and money.

Since we live in a society and since the society prevent us from live outside that society, you need resources to live in that society. The main resource is MONEY.
You can get food and water somehow. Have them in the right amount is good for the society healt (the card), preventing lots of diseases that could endanger other people. But after that...?
Even if you fed up people 'till the become fat and roll over the street, they will not be able to have a job, since they need the basic resource of this society.

Most of the jobs ask for a sort of vehicle. A bike, a car. So those jobs are out of range.
What's left? Minor jobs. Fine then.
Bob, our placeholder homeless, want to get a job and ask if he can haul material in a company.
He have to survive one month without money, so he rely completely on the food the society gives him through the card. Hopefully he'll get money withing the first month with the regular job.
Unlukly, to get a job he needs to sign lots of paper. Ehy, Bob, do you have a bank account? No? Maybe because you weren't able to pay it, they closed it. Now i'm not sure if in US is needed a money account to get a job, but most of the works here asks so, to prevent evasion. (Don't worry though, we have other system to help homeless)
Sadly, Bob doesn't have the money to open an account.
The company asks him to work illegally then. He would not, so he refuse.

What a *****. Is bob forced to be a criminal?
He could just decide to stay homeless, eat food with a card and wait that life passes.
Have some chat, enjoy the day.


Or
Better steal a couple of ****, sell it for black money and try to exit the loop. Accept some dirty job that no one would do otherwise, like grab a suspicious pack and drop it in the sea.
Who knows. With that few dirty money, Bob will be able to finally get a house, or open a bank account, or have a bike in...let's see. Will it need 600 years to get enough money?
I bet that Bob will die at age 45, in a winter, homeless. Human doesn't live long enough for the actual society.


The way to get out of poverty "with a job" is not THAT easy as you may think. What we consider obvious is not obvious when you're out the society.

If you want to use your money wisely, you can't pretend to not use those money. Those money are the only way the society have to avoid a mass of criminals around the streets that raid you for food.
You can ask, though, that the system take into count this dangerous loop and think a plan on how fix the bug, so that the ones that actually want to get into the society again, have the chance to do so.
Since is your society, i can't go deeper than this for now. It would need more knowledge.
But i hope you've got the general idea and the general problem.

Is not a touching speaking about "how sad is the poor man, be kind with him". Is a reasoning about "how are you supposed to get out your poverty"?

Feel free to share any law and chances i'm not aware of.

[Inotdead]

I don't give a fech if clayet says the same things, since i'm aware that we don't share the same perspective and reasoning. I don't need to be right, what i need to do is just show what reality is, which usually is the mix between me and the one i'm talking with.


Think a little about it. I was wondering before: "If i were a homeless without a job, how should i plan my life to get off this poverty?"

The actual society have a "problem". Strict Rules.
You can't simply "get a job".
Can you "have a job" without a house? I wonder how the actual society would react in front of a dirty, stinky homeless with a long beard that ask for a job.
A laugh or a moan. Either way, you have to find an angel somewhere willing to give you a job. Statistically would be 1 over thousands, so the society should not rely on that angel.

Then i could decide to leave the society and just be a savage, so that i don't need money from the society. Hunt, build a tent, die for illness 'cuz stuff happens. But i can't. There is no place like "land of no one". Everywhere i can reach with my foots, is private land. I don't want to be a criminal, so i'm not going to take a train withoyt pay.

Should i Hide in the city, in a park, hoping that no one sees me? It would not work, too many humans around. I don't have a RV. I don't have a land. Neither animals with me. And i've born in the west side of the world, so i don't eat dogs or cats. Plus, someone could kill me if they sees me eat those, or i would end up in the jail.
Ok. No "free savage life" then. The society pretend that i live in That society, afterall. Then i need food and money.

Since we live in a society and since the society prevent us from live outside that society, you need resources to live in that society. The main resource is MONEY.
You can get food and water somehow. Have them in the right amount is good for the society healt (the card), preventing lots of diseases that could endanger other people. But after that...?
Even if you fed up people 'till the become fat and roll over the street, they will not be able to have a job, since they need the basic resource of this society.

Most of the jobs ask for a sort of vehicle. A bike, a car. So those jobs are out of range.
What's left? Minor jobs. Fine then.
Bob, our placeholder homeless, want to get a job and ask if he can haul material in a company.
He have to survive one month without money, so he rely completely on the food the society gives him through the card. Hopefully he'll get money withing the first month with the regular job.
Unlukly, to get a job he needs to sign lots of paper. Ehy, Bob, do you have a bank account? No? Maybe because you weren't able to pay it, they closed it. Now i'm not sure if in US is needed a money account to get a job, but most of the works here asks so, to prevent evasion. (Don't worry though, we have other system to help homeless)
Sadly, Bob doesn't have the money to open an account.
The company asks him to work illegally then. He would not, so he refuse.

What a *****. Is bob forced to be a criminal?
He could just decide to stay homeless, eat food with a card and wait that life passes.
Have some chat, enjoy the day.


Or
Better steal a couple of ****, sell it for black money and try to exit the loop. Accept some dirty job that no one would do otherwise, like grab a suspicious pack and drop it in the sea.
Who knows. With that few dirty money, Bob will be able to finally get a house, or open a bank account, or have a bike in...let's see. Will it need 600 years to get enough money?
I bet that Bob will die at age 45, in a winter, homeless. Human doesn't live long enough for the actual society.


The way to get out of poverty "with a job" is not THAT easy as you may think. What we consider obvious is not obvious when you're out the society.

If you want to use your money wisely, you can't pretend to not use those money. Those money are the only way the society have to avoid a mass of criminals around the streets that raid you for food.
You can ask, though, that the system take into count this dangerous loop and think a plan on how fix the bug, so that the ones that actually want to get into the society again, have the chance to do so.
Since is your society, i can't go deeper than this for now. It would need more knowledge.
But i hope you've got the general idea and the general problem.

Is not a touching speaking about "how sad is the poor man, be kind with him". Is a reasoning about "how are you supposed to get out your poverty"?

Feel free to share any law and chances i'm not aware of.

Or you may simply visit the responsible institution and get yourself covered. Like Jobcenter / Arbeitsamt in Germany.
They get you on welfare, and will help you find a job. That's what they do.
If you don't even have your papers there is a homeless help center at almost every train station, who can help you get on your feet again should you desire it.
Do you even realize how weird you sound by speaking in stereotypes like that?
Also I don't know why you diminish everything to strictly homeless people. Noone was talking about them explicitly.

[TotalyMeow]

Geez, Flame, it's like you live in a fantasy world of absolutes. The system we have isn't working the way it should. That doesn't mean we have to immediately cancel any and all aid programs. There are some people out there who do need them to get back on their feet. The problem is like Inotdead says, there are those who get on welfare and then either come to rely on it too much or simply feel like they are owed this stuff and don't have the ambition to do better on their own.

As for the solution, if you want to talk about a solution, fine. But it's a bit soon to rant about no one providing one when said solution is pretty damn complex. It's can't be summed up in a single line or even a single post. Also, there are a lot of proposed solutions out there already so any serious debate would be more about convincing people there is a problem and that we need to make a change beyond just giving out more free stuff like we keep doing, not coming up with new solutions from scratch.

And as a side note, in the US, at least, it is quite possible to go live in the woods like a hermit with little to no contact with the rest of the world. If you actually have the survival skills to live like that, at least.

[Claeyt]

Poverty and especially concentrated poverty is a much better predictor of gun murders and gun violence than what state has which laws.

I wonder if you realize the significance of this statement. People have been telling you for a long time that other factors besides whether or not guns are available are the main influence on violence and murder. Are you finally starting to realize that?

I've never said that increased poverty isn't a factor in greater gun homicides? Access to guns, poverty, joblessness all lead to gun deaths.

Actually, it was an "I sympathize with you, Darwoth, I had similar experiences." post, and also for Taipon and others asking about poverty in the US. I realize your posts are all about self-aggrandizement, but most of the rest of us are just talking, not bragging. I would gladly trade the ability to post about those experiences for NOT HAVING EXPERIENCED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. And geez man, being an orphan is bad, but it's also a completely different situation which has nothing at all to do with the economy or poverty.

You rant about mental illness, losing a parent, drug addition, drunkenness, and physical abuse and/or neglect of parents against their children, and while some of those things can be partly a result of the despair that comes with being poor, they actually have nothing at all to do with poverty. You don't have to experience them to actually be poor. My parents chose to spend what little money we had keeping us alive as best they could instead of buying drugs. How dare you say that didn't make us poor. How dare you say that all those people out there, including my mother, who work their asses off every day taking care of people too young or sick to take care of themselves, spending all their free time hunting for the cheapest prices on basics like food and clothing so those under their care don't go hungry, unable to get any government assistance whatsoever (in our case because they thought my dad was faking being so sick he could hardly get out of bed), how dare you say they aren't poor or suffering just because they're not actively starving to death. And we didn't own much of a home. We sold our home to move to the Ozarks where the cost of living was lower and lived in a tiny old mobile home that was literally a tin oven on some days because we couldn't afford to turn the air on. My dad added a screened porch while he was still able for that sort of thing and we basically lived out there in the summer.

Get over yourself already. It's embarrassing to see you type this stuff when there are people on this forum from 3rd world countries. Like I said, you had a father and mother and weren't starving. Do you even know what the definition of poverty means? There are plenty of people without any money in America who are not poor. Lack of money is not the only part of poverty. Mostly I'm amazed that you hold such idiotic conservative views if you think your family could have been better served with doctors and health care.

And don't you DARE have the GALL to claim I don't know what suffering is when I, as a CHILD, had to grow up watching my father sink slowly into physical and mental illness. Lyme Disease attacks the nervous system in a most insidious way, causing a host of painful physical symptoms and debilitating mental ones. And it was ***** terrifying watching him slowly falling apart dying. So don't you wade in here and claim only you understand human suffering you self-righteous little ****.

Get over it. Millions of people in this country have dealt with it, I'm sorry your dad went undiagnosed. My dad had it and got treated right away. My brother had it and got treated right away. I live in Wisconsin, I've known at least 5 people who've gotten it, we have a lot of ticks. You know which country has the absolute best outcome and best research on lyme's disease? Canada. Maybe if conservative libertarians wouldn't keep blocking universal health care we wouldn't have as many undiagnosed problems as we do here.

Food Stamps help people. Federal Disability helps people. Welfare helps people. I've seen it with my own eyes. I've seen people who would be dead or living in an alley without help like this

No one here said they didn't. I distinctly remember that -I- said people who need it can't get it while others who don't, do get it. The system is ***** up and that's all anyone has said so far. Not that charity shouldn't exist, but that what we have is not doing its job. You yourself just mentioned several cases where people were not getting back on their feet despite government assistance. They seem to not be properly using the funds they are getting to care for their kids. Logically, you would be agreeing with us, yet all you saw here was an opportunity to jump all over everyone, promote how saintlike you are for doing some charitable volunteer work like you're the only one, and at one point ... blame poverty on black people?? Seriously, wtf?

Government benefits are not about getting back on your feet, they are about stopping the fall.

Government benefits are not "charity" they are the basic human rights such as access to medicine and fear from hunger and homelessness we have determined, as a democracy to be crucial to the pursuit of happiness of our citizens and immigrants (legal or otherwise) who live here. It's about being a decent human society through government means. Private charity will never be the full answer and the lack of objectiveness of most religions towards non-members and non-believers in their religious beliefs in their charity work is why the Progressives started the call government benefits back at the turn of the 19th century.

Both Dallane and Darwoth have said it in this thread and yourself in this same paragraph are saying they don't work and should be replaced, thus you are saying they don't help people otherwise why would you contemplate replacing them and not fixing them. Government assistance is not always about the republican cliche of "getting back on your feet" it's about maintaining the basic necessities of life. It's about saying this is the line where we can not allow people to live below and still maintain a decent life worth living. It's about a floor as to how far we let our citizens fall into poverty. Yes some people will get off what little temporary benefits they get after being unemployed, others will always be on benefits due to disability, mental illness and other reasons.

Of course fixing the problems within these benefits is fine. I admit there are some problems. This is happening as we speak. The Democrats tried to get a bill through that would block soda and candy from food stamps, the Republican's blocked it after lobbyists went into a frenzy and instead tried to put 'shame' attachments onto the SNAP cards such as utterly irrelevant drug tests and trying to shame them at the counter by having them use separate cashiers. The Democrats are trying to change the programs for the better. We can see that from the Obama administration getting SNAP fraud down to around 1% from 2.5% Meanwhile the Republicans are trying to deny people the benefit.

I'm not saintlike, I've just seen more than you apparently, otherwise you wouldn't hold your ideas to be correct. What we have is absolutely doing it's job. Without these programs we would be worse off than we are as a country. Getting rid of these programs will have direct and immediate negative actions on the population of this country as shown in states such as Mississippi, Kansas and Alabama as they've slowly whittled them down.

I never said our tax system wasn't ***** up. We would be better off with a flat tax on things like income, and no tax on most everything else. Seriously, why do we even HAVE property tax?? However, you are wrong again. First, yes, rich people do tend to save more money than poorer people and money in a no-interest bank account isn't actively taxed, but all purchases are taxed mostly equally, percent-wise, so the ~8% sales tax a poor person pays for groceries is the same ~8% sales tax I pay. I have more money to spend, so I probably buy more expensive foods, but I still pay the exact same percentage of money. Maybe I own more property, a bigger house, more cars, whatever, but I also pay more property tax as a result. And any money I invest instead of just stuffing in a mattress, guess what? It gets taxed. Add that to the fact that there are also a lot of government programs that will help pay for things like rent, utilities, food, clothing, and other essentials if you are poor, the fact that we have a progressive income tax system (you pay a higher percent of income tax the more money you make), and the fact that you CAN get more money in an income tax refund from the government than you actually paid in, and your claim is *****.

First, a flat tax favors the rich, especially if we maintain ANY deductions of corporate or capital income.

Second, Mitt Romeny and the tax shelters of the rich have nothing to do with no-interest bank accounts. He payed low taxes as a percent of his income because of 1.) It was taxed as capital gains, 2.) His profits from his corporation was taxed as corporate profits and not personal wealth and 3.) His company didn't bring oversea profits back to America and avoided taxation on them through offshore accounts.

Third, there are actually very few government programs that will help you with rent unless you are already homeless or have a disability of some sort including mental illness. People you see who are getting state vouchers for their rent are almost always single mothers with kids and people with a permanent or temporary disability. All of these require that you have been evaluated by a social worker (and diagnosed by a doctor) and are contingent on you maintaining a relationship with the government social worker. As for clothes there are specific small programs run by cities and maybe a state program here and there that give a ONE-TIME voucher for clothing but it's usually like a $200 voucher to Goodwill or something like that. People who have been injured on disability or with a debilitating mental illness will receive social security and federal benefits based on their need, access to benefits and length of recovery. This means they get money into a bank account.

Federal and State welfare programs that aren't simple temporary Unemployment with a time limit where they give money directly to the participant who does not have a disability are not common. They usually involve single mothers with small children who aren't in school yet. Almost all states now require eventual participation in a job program once their kids reach 1st grade. They'll have to maintain a temp or part time job or job training that fits their schedule for their kids if they want to maintain the government giving them money for spending on whatever. They'll get help with rent (which is payed directly to the landlord) and they'll get help with food (which is payed directly to the business) no matter what but they'll only get a small amount in an ATM like account for clothes and other stuff if they maintain that job program and keep up with their social worker.

You may pay the same sales tax on things as your sister but you DO NOT pay the same as a percentage of your income, and this is why sales taxes are a regressive tax.

Property taxes are an important part of running the government. In almost all states they go towards maintaining the schools. As for if they are needed versus other taxes, that's open for debate. The obscenity of the comparable wealth in America has reached the point where the middle class is slipping into poverty and States count on individual billionaires for their income tax so as to simply maintain the government services already in place. We haven't seen anything like this in the history of our country.

Your sister pays taxes on stuff. Instead of criticizing her for getting help, wonder if she was maybe a paycheck away from being homeless without that help.

She pays taxes on her premium HBO channels, sure. She's about one paycheck away from buying a new couch. I know what my sister's finances are and I know that if she wasn't a spoiled brat who thinks the world owes her a living and who can't resist buying the latest iPhone and then crying to my parents that she's out of money and getting them to buy her kids clothes, she and her family would be able to live just fine on what her husband makes. Instead, she's getting WIC and several other assistances she truly doesn't need while someone else out there who does need it, isn't getting it.

I doubt she's on WIC, your income has to be pretty low as in 'not working more than 20 hrs a week as a family' low to get it but maybe she is, I don't know her situation or what state she's in. If her husband is working full time she's probably just getting a partial benefit from SNAP/food stamps which you can get pretty easily if you have a low income and kids. As for her going to your parents then that's on them but you don't sound like a very caring sister if you think that she doesn't need help and she qualifies for WIC. As for her spending money on HBO, you'd be amazed how often HBO and cable get canceled from month to month with poor people. Some months they can afford stuff like that and others not. It's a process getting someone off benefits. Hopefully she and her family eventually get better jobs and then the SNAP benifits won't be needed.

Everything you've described in your life story there is not true poverty

***** you, Claeyt.

...and NO Darwoth, you can not legally buy anything but food with an EBT or Food stamps card. [...] there is a small percentage who engage in food stamp fraud

No, there is a small percentage who get caught. The percentage who don't get caught is higher. I like how you deny it's possible in one sentence and then admit that it happens in the next. And those are the people who Dallane is referring to when he calls them scum. The ones who lie and cheat to get the benefits that others should be getting, and the ones who maybe do need those benefits, but then turn around and spend them on drugs and cigarettes instead of on their starving children.

And before you accuse me of wanting to starve out the poor or something equally ridiculous, I do think that poor people should be helped. I just don't think the system we are using is working the way it should be, but this post is long enough already.

No... ***** you for trying to deny other people the benefits that may have helped your dad more. There are probably thousands of families right now in America who are dealing with undiagnosed lyme's disease and lack of universal health care to deal with it. Your ideas and voting tendencies are hurting them just like you and your dad were hurt by his lack of good health care. Remember that when you vote this fall.

There is an incredibly small percentage who attempt fraud with SNAP. Like I've said here several times Obama's administration has lowered it below 1% fraud for the first time ever. And that's 1% total fraud, not just the ones who get caught. It's actually an incredibly effective program as to fraud. Greedy ***** doctors and hospitals sucking off Medicare and the VA is a lot worse. It's important to remember that the fraud is created and maintained by someone who owns a store (or in the case of Medicare a clinic) and has applied to the federal government or state so as to take SNAP (or medicare). They recruit poor people for it. It's not the poor people creating the avenue of fraud in most cases.

[Dallane]

And cleaty continues to show himself as a hateful racist.

Notice how he ignores so much that has been said that true and only focus on **** he can copy and paste from liberal websites and reddit?

[Claeyt]

Better off without it now anyway, I feel less like a parasite.

It's a conservative ***** cliche that you were ever a parasite to begin with or made you feel guilty about it. It sounds like you simply weren't making much money but still paying taxes so you qualified and applied for SNAP when you needed it. It's not free money, you needed a bit of help for awhile and used it. Why are you hating on others for using it.

All of you don't understand that it's incredibly rare for people to be on SNAP forever. Besides the fact that it now, starting this year, has time limits for working adults without dependent kids, studies show that 1/3 of new snap participants are off it after 1 year and 2/3 are off it after 3 years. This includes those with partial and full benefits.

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-re ... 15-97.html