i hope claeyt is ok

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Re: i hope claeyt is ok

Postby saltmummy » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:22 pm

Claeyt wrote:Saying that murders will stay the same if murderers can't use guns is just dumb. Of course they go down. You can't injure 103 people with a knife.

That is without a doubt, the most retarded thing I have read in a long long time. I can see now why no one on this forum takes you seriously. Of course you can't injure 103 people with a knife... all at once. What? is some guy gonna dive into a crowd of people with a knife and go on a stabbing spree? No. If you are using something like a knife, you are going to do it carefully and quietly over a long period of time. Of course, you cut that bit out didn't you? As I observed, you just pick apart what you feel you can argue with and throw out the rest.
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Re: i hope claeyt is ok

Postby HPLovecraft » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:25 pm

saltmummy wrote:
Claeyt wrote:Saying that murders will stay the same if murderers can't use guns is just dumb. Of course they go down. You can't injure 103 people with a knife.

That is without a doubt, the most retarded thing I have read in a long long time. I can see now why no one on this forum takes you seriously. Of course you can't injure 103 people with a knife... all at once. What? is some guy gonna dive into a crowd of people with a knife and go on a stabbing spree? No. If you are using something like a knife, you are going to do it carefully and quietly over a long period of time. Of course, you cut that bit out didn't you? As I observed, you just pick apart what you feel you can argue with and throw out the rest.


Hey even better you might want to add this to your rebuttal to Claeyt.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-de ... ree-n41966

Funny right? 33 dead and 130 injured.
Claeyt wrote:If you ban me for that then you, Tmeow have lost all credibility as to the argument and maybe you'll FINALLY learn that YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE DIRECTLY SUPPORTED BY RACISTS LIKE DARWOTH, INFINITY OF WAR, AND HP.

Anuu cheeki breeki iv damke!
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Re: i hope claeyt is ok

Postby Claeyt » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:26 pm

HPLovecraft wrote:
Claeyt wrote:No one should be allowed to buy as many guns as they want without licensing, controls and regulation in a civil society.

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
-Robert A. Heinlein

I'm glad you at least posted the second line. Have you actually ever read what the quote comes from? I have. From your new forum name I'd guess that you should read it. It's not what you think your quoting. Here's the full paragraph of the quote of Mordan from the book:

"Well, in the first place an armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. For me, politeness is a sine qua non of civilization. That's a personal evaluation only. But gunfighting has a strong biological use. We do not have enough things to kill off the weak and the stupid these days. But to stay alive as an armed citizen a man has to be either quick with his wits or with his hands, preferably both."

He's talking about the 'Second Genetic War'. A war of Eugenics. He goes on to advocate that violence and killing helps cull the weak and he argues against the government protection of the weak.

Is this really how you feel about your fellow human beings? Do you want to kill the weak? Should only the strong be armed?

You should really know what you're quoting before you quote something.

Here's the whole page where it's from:

Beyond This Horizon(38)

By: Robert A. Heinlein


"Come to think about it, I haven't pulled mine in four years or more."

"That's the idea. But don't assume that the custom of going armed is useless.

Customs always have a reason behind them, sometimes good, sometimes bad. This is a good one."

"Why do you say that? I used to think so, but I have my doubts now."

"Well, in the first place an armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. For me, politeness is a sine qua non of civilization. That's a personal evaluation only. But gunfighting has a strong biological use. We do not have enough things to kill off the weak and the stupid these days. But to stay alive as an armed citizen a man has to be either quick with his wits or with his hands, preferably both.

It's a good thing.

"Of course," he continued, "our combativeness has to do with our ancestry and our history." Hamilton nodded; he knew that Mordan referred to the Second Genetic War. "But we have preserved that inheritance intentionally. The Planners would not stop the wearing of arms if they could."

"Maybe so," Felix answered slowly, "but it does seem like there ought to be a better way to do it. This way is pretty sloppy. Sometimes the bystanders get burned."

"The alert ones don't," Mordan pointed out. "But don't expect human institutions to be efficient. They never have been; it is a mistake to think that they can be made so-in this millennium or the next."

"Why not?"

"Because we are sloppy, individually-and therefore collectively. Look at a cageful of monkeys, at your next opportunity. Watch how they do things and listen to them chatter. You'll find it instructive. You'll understand humans better."

Felix grinned. "I think I see what you mean. But what am I to do about Smith?"

"If he gets out of this, I think he had better wear a gun after this. Perhaps you can impress on him then that his life will depend on the softness of his words. But for the present-I know this chap he challenged. Suppose you suggest me as referee."

"Are you going to let them fight?"

"In my own way. I think I can arrange for them to fight barehanded." Mordan had delved back into his encyclopedic memory and had come put with a fact that Hamilton would not fully appreciate. Smith had come from a decadent period in which handfighting had become stylized as fist fighting, No doubt he was adept in it. It was necessary for one not to use the gun with which he was adept; it was equitable that the other not use fists, were he adept in their use. So Mordan wished to referee that he might define the rules.

It is not necessary to give overmuch attention to that rather unimportant and uncolorful little man, J. Darlington Smith. Hamilton was forced to withdraw as next friend, since Carruthers needed him at the time, and did not therefore see the encounter. He learned of it first by discovering that Smith was immobilized in an infirmary, suffering from some rather unusual wounds. But he did not quite lose the sight of his left eye and his other damages were mostly gone in a couple of weeks.

All of which happened some days later than the conversation with Mordan.

Hamilton turned back to his work. There were various little matters to attend to. One team of researchers in particular belonged to him alone. He had noticed when he was a boy that a physical object, especially a metallic one, brought near to his forehead above the bridge of the nose seemed to produce some sort of a response inside the head, not connected, apparently, with the physiological senses. He had not thought of it for many years, until the Great Research had caused him to think of such things. Was it real, or was it imagination? It was a mere tightening of the nerves, an uneasy feeling, but distinct and different from any other sensation. Did other people have it?

What caused it? Did it mean anything?

He mentioned it to Carruthers who had said, "Well, don't stand there speculating about it. Put a crew to work on it." He had. They had already discovered that the feeling was not uncommon but rarely talked about. It was such a little thing and hard to define. Subjects had been found who had it in a more marked degree than most-Hamilton ceased being a subject for experimentation himself.

He called the crew leader. "Anything new, George?"

"Yes and no. We have found a chap who can distinguish between different metals nearly eighty per cent of the time, and between wood and metal every time. But we are still no nearer finding out what makes it tick."

"Need anything?"

"No."

"Call me if you need me. Helpful Felix the Cheerful Cherub."

"Okay."

It must not be supposed that Hamilton Felix was very important to the Great Research. He was not the only idea man that Carruthers had, not by several offices. It is probable that the Great Research would have gone on in much the same fashion, even during his lifetime, even if he had not been co-opted. But it would not have gone in quite the same way.

But it is hard to evaluate the relative importance of individuals. Who was the more important? -- the First Tyrant of Madagascar, or the nameless peasant who assassinated him? Felix's work had some effect. So did that of each of the eight-thousand-odd other individuals who took part at one time or another in the Great Research.

Jacobstein Ray called back before he could turn his mind to other matters.

"Felix? You can come over and take your young hopeful away, if you will."

"Fine. What sort of results?"

"Maddening. He started out with seven correct answers in a row, then he blew up completely. Results no better than random-until he stopped answering at all."

"Oh, he did, did he?" remarked Hamilton, thinking of a certain flop-eared buck.

"Yes indeed. Went limp on us. I'd as leave try to stuff a snake down a hole."

"Well, we'll try another day. Meanwhile I'll attend to him."

"I'd enjoy helping you," Jake said wistfully.

Theobald was just sitting, doing less than nothing, when Felix came in.

"Hello, sport. Ready to go home?"

"Yes."

Felix waited until they were in the family car and the pilot set on home before bracing him. "Ray tells me you didn't help him very well."

Theobald twisted a string around his finger. He concentrated on it.

"Well, how about it? Did you, or didn't you?"

"He wanted me to play some stupid games," the child stated. "No sense to them."

"So you quit?"

"Yeah."

"I thought you told me you would help?"

"I didn't say I would."

Felix thought back. The child was probably right-he could not remember. But he had had a feeling of contract, the "meeting of minds."

"Seems to me there was mention of a flop-eared rabbit."

"But," Theobald pointed out, "you said I could have it anyhow. You told me so!"

The rest of the trip home was mostly silence.





CHAPTER SIXTEEN

The Quick and the Dead

MADAME ESPARTERO CARVALA called again, unexpectedly and with no ceremony. She simply called by telephone and announced that she was coming to see them. She had informed Phyllis on the previous occasion that she expected to come back and see the baby. But more than four years had passed with no word from her; Phyllis had given up expecting her. After all, one does not thrust oneself on a member of the cosmically remote Board of Policy!

They had seen references to her in the news: Madame Espartero re-confirmed without opposition. Madame Espartero offers her resignation. The Grand Old Lady of the Board in failing health. Madame Espartero's alternate selected by special election. Carvala rallies in her fight for life. Planners honor sixtieth year of service of the Oldest Member. Stereo stories and news bits-she had become an institution.

Felix had thought when he saw her last that she looked older than any human being could. He realized when he saw her this time that he had been mistaken.

She was still more incredibly frail and shrunken and she seemed to move with great effort. She compressed her lips tightly with each movement.

But her eye was still bright, her voice was still firm. She dominated her surroundings.

Phyllis came forward. "We are delighted. I never expected to see you again."

"I told you I was coming back to see the boy."

"Yes, I remember, but it has been a long time and you did not come."

"No sense in looking a child over until he has shaped up and can speak for himself! Where is he? Fetch him in."

"Felix, will you find him?"

"Certainly, my dear." Felix departed, wondering how it was that he, a grown man and in full possession of his powers, could permit a little old woman, ripe for cremation, to get him so on edge. It was childish of him!

Theobald did not want to leave his rabbits. "I'm busy."

Felix considered the plan of returning to the lounge and announcing that Theobald would receive Madame Espartero, if at all, at the rabbit run. But he decided that he could not do such a thing to Phyllis. "Look, son, there is a lady in there who wants to see you."

No answer.

"Make up your mind," Felix announced cheerfully. "Will you walk or do you prefer to be dragged? It makes no difference to me."

Theobald looked slowly up his father's sheer two meters and, without further comment, started for the house.

"Madame Espartero, this is Theobald."

"So I see. Come to me, Theobald." Theobald stood fast.


This quote from that page is much more interesting and thought provoking:

"But it is hard to evaluate the relative importance of individuals. Who was the more important? -- the First Tyrant of Madagascar, or the nameless peasant who assassinated him? Felix's work had some effect. So did that of each of the eight-thousand-odd other individuals who took part at one time or another in the Great Research."

HPLovecraft wrote:
Claeyt wrote:So why in the ***** do we allow anyone to go buy and arm a gun, specifically a gun that's designed to kill as many people as possible with no restrictions, continuing licensing or universal background checks. It's insanity not to do what every other safe, democratic, modern, westernized country has done and control access to guns.

I can buy a reproduced Whitworth rifle and put a modern scope on it and hit people in the back up to 2,000 yards. Guaranteed hits at 1,200 yards if I go to the range often enough. Remember all the incidents where people were terrorized by marksmen with bolt action rifles? You can do the same with this easily. Don't bother responding we need to ban all firearms.

Claeyt wrote:This is the only way to keep this from happening and from keeping guns out of the hands of most mass murderers, most criminals, most terrorists and most murderers. It'll never be perfect but it'll be harder for them to do stuff like this and we'll have less killings.

This is how politicians get shot you know? Do you really want to send the U.S. into civil war that badly?


The fallacy of your logic here and ALL these arguments about how if we ban guns, criminals will still be able to get guns is that ALL of these things can happen now. You could still go shoot a politician. You can still scope a Whitworth and go shoot people. You can still make a gun and go kill someone with it. If we do nothing or change nothing then the killing will keep happening over and over and over and over...

Other countries have proven that if you make guns extremely hard to get and illegal to own without a license then mass murder, gun homicides and gun violence goes down. It's as simple as that.
Last edited by Claeyt on Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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As the river rolled over the cliffs, my own laughing joy was drowned out by the roaring deluge of the water. The great cataract of Darwoth's Tears fell over and over endlessly.
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Re: i hope claeyt is ok

Postby Dallane » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:31 pm

Claeyt wrote:You've always been a racist ******* throughout this game and it's never fun listening to your racism in chat or on the forum. Dallane's just a spam-trolling *******. It's the great failing of JC that he chose You and Dallane as his non-MM chat buddy forum entourage instead of Binks, Alloin, PmP and the rest of the Tribal nut-huggers. Thanks to the gods Kandarim is still around to provide some intelligence to his cast of courtiers. I wish MagicMann was here. I miss him.


You keep using that word spam troll when it's not true no matter how often you say it.

Everyone who you named is also part of the 33. All the tribe and it's "nut huggers" are still around and play off and on.
Please click this link for a better salem forum experience

TotalyMeow wrote: Claeyt's perspective of Salem and what it's about is very different from the devs and in many cases is completely the opposite of what we believe.
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Re: i hope claeyt is ok

Postby Darwoth » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:33 pm

Claeyt wrote:
Darwoth wrote:yes two years ago you were somewhat fun to spat with over nonsense, thats why everytime you got yourself banned it was always me quietly advocating on your behalf. between then and now however you turned into your typical hate filled venom spitting militant liberal, which is simply an delusional ******* that nobody can stand so you have ruined much of that aspect.

and i have been trolled a few times by various folks, but i can not recall a time you ever trolled me on anything, feel free to clarify if i am incorrect.

You've always been a racist ******* throughout this game and it's never fun listening to your racism in chat or on the forum. Dallane's just a spam-trolling *******. It's the great failing of JC that he chose You and Dallane as his non-MM chat buddy forum entourage instead of Binks, Alloin, PmP and the rest of the Tribal nut-huggers. Thanks to the gods Kandarim is still around to provide some intelligence to his cast of courtiers. I wish MagicMann was here. I miss him.

I've trolled you in game more than you've ever trolled or me. I saved the 'Candy Queen' from your trap AND I saved Sipo from you when you cursed him with the bear intestine AND I helped evacuate Arcadia after you took it. Not to mention all the other times I thwarted your little schemes.




actually you along with other liberals are infinitely more racist than i am claeyt, you are the typical "them dumb negros NEED me to protect them!" sort which implies they are far more inequal and incapable in your eyes than they are in mine who simply expects them not to be a thieving and thugging pile of ****, raise their children and not live off of welfare checks. want to know the real reason blacks are so far behind the curve in the country claeyt? people like you.

so then, do i like black folks as a general rule? hell ***** no, all an intelligent person has to do is open their eyes to know there is a 90% chance when interacting with a black person in this country that they are a **** stain, you know like the black guy in the video you ignored pointed out. that said do i have decades long friendships with black folks? yep (and that is in the real world with real people, not some **** "profile" out of 5000 others on a facebook account you use for self righteous indignation points). your fragile liberal mind and lifetime of revisionist brainwashing would not understand the social dynamic of the american south and the differences in what is "racist" or not and why nobody gives a **** either way :lol: :lol: :lol:


i also forgot to add the fact that you completely talk out of your ******* is another thing i cant stand about you.

as for the game.

you clicked "send home" on a guy i clipped in town on a whim to make his livestream amusing, he might of had to wait 60 seconds if you had not SAVED THE DAY, beyond that you never did **** in game because you do not have a presence in game outside of town which is why you have not been killed. by the way, that is not "trolling" you raging *******.

the rest of your **** is just more absurdity, you had no involvement of any kind with me curbstomping the candy gang on roanoke, alloin was saved by his 5 team mates that showed up and since i only had a 40 stat character at the time vs a half dozen in the 300 - 1000 range (of which all except binks were later killed with the scents they left that day so it ended up working out even better anyway :lol: :lol: :lol: )
Last edited by Darwoth on Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: i hope claeyt is ok

Postby HPLovecraft » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:36 pm

Claeyt wrote:
HPLovecraft wrote:
Claeyt wrote:No one should be allowed to buy as many guns as they want without licensing, controls and regulation in a civil society.

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
-Robert A. Heinlein

I'm glad you at least posted the second line. Have you actually ever read what the quote comes from? I have. From your new forum name I'd guess that you should read it. It's not what you think your quoting. Here's the full paragraph of the quote of Mordan from the book:

"Well, in the first place an armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. For me, politeness is a sine qua non of civilization. That's a personal evaluation only. But gunfighting has a strong biological use. We do not have enough things to kill off the weak and the stupid these days. But to stay alive as an armed citizen a man has to be either quick with his wits or with his hands, preferably both."

He's talking about the 'Second Genetic War'. A war of Eugenics. He goes on to advocate that violence and killing helps cull the weak and he argues against the government protection of the weak.

Is this really how you feel about your fellow human beings? Do you want to kill the weak? Should only the strong be armed?

You should really know what you're quoting before you quote something.

You are assuming I do not support Eugenics. You do realize there are two ways to complete Eugenics right? I prefer the sterilization method as it is safer and easier to do now with no harm to the individual. I don't want to kill people, or kill off the weak, least a weak individual tries to kill me. In which case I'll use my God given right to kill that person in self defense. Even Hobbs established self defense of this nature, even for a heretical heathen such as yourself with no God, for all people in Leviathan. You should try reading it some time.

Because yes, a polite society is an armed society. An idiot has the biological sense to know another person with a gun can kill them just as easily as they can kill you. All humans understand this. Why don't you?
Claeyt wrote:If you ban me for that then you, Tmeow have lost all credibility as to the argument and maybe you'll FINALLY learn that YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE DIRECTLY SUPPORTED BY RACISTS LIKE DARWOTH, INFINITY OF WAR, AND HP.

Anuu cheeki breeki iv damke!
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Re: i hope claeyt is ok

Postby Inotdead » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:50 pm

Claeyt wrote:Again, it's buried. I nominate the admin to go find it and prove me wrong.


I already did. Darwoth did. Tmeow did. Everyone did.
Everyone sees and understands it but you.
Like always you are cowering your eyes and ears shouting "NU-UH THATS NOT WHAT HAPPENED YOU ASSHOLES"

It's kinda sad that toxicity is all you are capable of lately. This used to be more fun.
Claeyt wrote: I'm not saying it's right or justified that they steal or sell drugs or murder cops I'm saying that that's exactly what you would do if you were poor and desperate and Black.
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Re: i hope claeyt is ok

Postby Flame » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:51 pm

You can't delete a problem adding more problems.
You can just circumscribe the problem.
Give a weapon to everybody is just like put a needle in a straw pile. Now that everybody have a weapon, there's no way that the evil one with a weapon is noticeable.
Not a nice move to improve protection in a society, imho. Societies works because is a great number of people working together. Society doesn't work when it confide in the power of the single civil, since the civil can't do that much.

You can fight the enemy you have in front of you, but there's no way you can fight the reason why that enemy have born, or why is in front of you.
That's what police can do, since is organized in a group of people.

To upgrade the security of a country you can do two things:
Become a police man
or
Make so that the "good people" doesn't own a weapon.

In this way the bad people is easier to spot because they are forced to find a weapon on the black market. So only in certain spots. So easier to control.


Weapons aren't the way to grant you the freedom from tiranny, since police man have better weapons :P.
So maybe you can find other ways to keep yourself safe from tiranny and at the same time upgrade the country safety, optimizing the police work.
My two cents.
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Re: i hope claeyt is ok

Postby Claeyt » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:52 pm

TotalyMeow wrote:
Claeyt wrote:The second amendment... blah blah blah...


Okay... let's just take this part of it to a new thread, which I will start when I get a moment. An historical discussion sounds like fun.


No, leave it here. The history of the interpretation of the second amendment during the Reconstruction and Jim Crow absolutely has to do with the mass killing in Orlando and gun violence in America. This is the thread for that.

TotalyMeow wrote:
Claeyt wrote:A mish-mash of State laws defining how you can discriminate against women or homosexuals in the workplace isn't the answer. They need to be included in federal law governing discrimination.


No, the federal government is bloated enough as it is. Let's not make it worse. It needs some fat cutting, if anything. I don't have a lot of confidence that State governments can make simpler laws really, but originally most of government was meant to be done at the state level so at least it has that going for it.


No, this is False:

State laws for discrimination are what led us to Slavery, and the 100 years of American Apartheid called 'Jim Crow' and it'll lead to another 100 years of landlords being allowed to refuse renting to gay people and 100 years of discrimination in the workplace and 100 years of North Carolina bathroom bills. Only the inclusion of 'Sexual Orientation' within Federal anti-discrimination laws will shut the religious nut-jobs of the South up.

TotalyMeow wrote:
Claeyt wrote:No it's not irrelevant. Not at all, because people are only criminals when they finally pull the trigger. You're trying to argue that we should somehow keep the guns out of criminals hands while allowing everyone who isn't a criminal to buy one. That's how this guy in Orlando got his, or the guy in San Bernadino, or the guy in Oregon, or the guy in Sandy Hook...etc... It couldn't be proven that he was a criminal so he was legally allowed to buy as many guns as he wanted. That's the problem. No one should be allowed to buy as many guns as they want without licensing, controls and regulation in a civil society. We don't let anyone buy and drive a car without licensing. We don't allow anyone go fish or own a boat or hunt without a license and contact with the government for regulation and background checks. So why in the ***** do we allow anyone to go buy and arm a gun, specifically a gun that's designed to kill as many people as possible with no restrictions, continuing licensing or universal background checks. It's insanity not to do what every other safe, democratic, modern, westernized country has done and control access to guns.


I never said we should try to keep guns out of criminal hands. I said that's impossible and taking guns from everyone else will not help.

You mention mass shootings, and I agree that it is probably difficult to kill dozens of people with a knife. However, it is not hard to kill dozens with a bomb/grenade style weapon. If mass death is your aim, a gun is still not needed. And since most murders are individual, doing it with a knife or a bat or rat poison or a well-placed punch to the throat vs a gun will make little difference there either.

Now when it comes to a mass shooting, I think I'd prefer to have the option to have a gun and try to defend myself against a similarly armed opponent rather than find myself confronting a homemade grenade. When it comes to individual defense against someone I think is a threat, I'd probably also have a better chance with guns being involved than with most other weapons.

Licensing is an entirely different matter than controlling access to guns, especially on the levels of control you are talking about. I am not against mandatory gun safety and usage testing if you want to own and operate a gun. We teach Driver's Education in school, let's add the option for a firearms and weapons safety course as well. Similarly, learning permits so a parent can take their kid to a range and teach them themselves, etc. And you do already need permits to concealed carry.

This is absolutely False:

Other countries have proven over and over again that making it harder for everyone to own and buy guns WILL help. This has been proven over and over again. It's no longer worth arguing that stricter gun laws won't cut down on gun violence. It's as if you were arguing against global warming being man made. You can argue about 98% of the facts being wrong when 2% of the science supports your argument but you'll look silly. You can no longer deny the FACT that stricter gun laws lead to less violence if you want to appear as a rational argument.

As for the argument against banning guns because people will just use bombs or knives. This is also false logic. I'll say it again in case you didn't read it above. They can already use those things. They can already make bombs or use knives or clubs. It is harder to make a bomb than it is to shoot up a night club. It is harder to kill someone with a knife or a club than it is to shoot them with a gun. There will always be murderers. Stricter gun laws make it harder for them to kill people.
jorb wrote:(jwhitehorn) you are an ungrateful, spoiled child


As the river rolled over the cliffs, my own laughing joy was drowned out by the roaring deluge of the water. The great cataract of Darwoth's Tears fell over and over endlessly.
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Re: i hope claeyt is ok

Postby Claeyt » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:56 pm

saltmummy wrote:As I observed, you just pick apart what you feel you can argue with and throw out the rest.

No, I'm just done arguing with people like you that say stupid things like criminals will just kill people with knives and bombs if we make guns harder to get.

Why are you going round and round on this. Country after Country has proven over the last 40 years that if you make stricter gun laws your murder rate goes down.

HPLovecraft wrote:Hey even better you might want to add this to your rebuttal to Claeyt.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-de ... ree-n41966

Funny right? 33 dead and 130 injured.

Luckily the guy didn't have a couple of guns otherwise it could have been much worse. :roll:
jorb wrote:(jwhitehorn) you are an ungrateful, spoiled child


As the river rolled over the cliffs, my own laughing joy was drowned out by the roaring deluge of the water. The great cataract of Darwoth's Tears fell over and over endlessly.
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