i hope claeyt is ok

[Darwoth]

hey claeyt, is this guy racist?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut35qLJtWRI

Who? The black guy talking about a murder in DC?

When are you going to learn that black people are allowed to use an N-bomb if they want but that you are not allowed to use it.

once again claeyt rolls his face across the keyboard, pretty sure that fellow had a lot more to say than "a murder in DC"

[saltmummy]

Also, I don't know about you but when I'm told something has become illegal to purchase/own, it just makes me want to have it more.

In a normal country guns like these are illegal and making them is illegal.

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean I won't be able to get it. Illegal didn't stop my step brother from casting his own pair of brass knuckles, which are illegal to buy in my state. It won't stop me from getting or making the parts I need to make some kind of automatic weapon if I so want it. I don't want one of course, I fail to see the point in owning something that is needless in the use I would find for a gun. Namely, hunting. If I really wanted one though, being illegal isn't going to stop me from getting it. If I can't buy it or find someone else who can supply one, I'll try to make one and being illegal to make won't stop me from making it either. What are the authorities going to do? Come to my workshop and accuse me of making a gun? With what evidence? Some tools, A pile of scrap metal, and bits of wood? Keeping them from knowing about it would be as simple as keeping ones damn mouth shut and not showing it off. "No officer that's just some bits and bobs I have saved up in case I need them for home repairs. Why would I throw that out? A pipe is useful. What if the shower has a rupture this next winter? These brackets are left over from when we installed the deck and these bits of aluminum are from when the windows were replaced. What? I don't remember it being illegal to own a welder sir, in fact I know it isn't. I know it also isn't illegal to keep the left over bolts from when the shed was built. Can I also not own the springs from my busted dog kennel either?" A gun made from that kind of stuff would be far inferior to a real one, but if I wanted to mash it all together to make a weapon, there is little anyone can do to stop me. You may not be able to shoot up an entire club of people with it, but that doesn't matter does it? One life or 49 lives, you can still kill with it.

[Claeyt]

Also, I don't know about you but when I'm told something has become illegal to purchase/own, it just makes me want to have it more.

In a normal country guns like these are illegal and making them is illegal.

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean I won't be able to get it.

There's a big difference between owning something because you're told you can't and facing real punishment for owning, making or selling something. When you know that illegal means years in prison and thousands in fines you are much less likely to do it. This is how illegal guns are deterred against in other countries. If you're found with an illegal gun in the United States you face a small amount of jail time. If you're found with an illegal gun in the UK you're facing a MINIMUM of 5 years in prison. That's a pretty big deterrent to making something that's designed to kill someone.

[Darwoth]

this is now the third time (or more) claeyt has deluded himself into thinking that someone who plans to shoot someone is going to be deterred from buying/making/stealing a firearm to do so.

you know one of the most common ways the robbers in northeast brazil get guns? murder a cop and take his.

clearly brazil is a low crime utopia thanks to their gun laws!

[Darwoth]

i would also like to point out the true nature of a "tolerant" and "open minded" liberal.

claeyt has done nothing since coming into this thread except try to have me and others banned for earth shattering words like "****", demanded a picture of a german general (rommel?) be removed and proceed to tell everyone their rights should be stolen and they should be thrown in jail for choosing to defend themselves.

they are also the ones who always want to raise our countries taxes astronomically to "redistribute the wealth" from those who earned and deserve it to worthless piles of **** that want a free lunch.


me? folks like me? we really dont give a ***** what you do or how just so long as you do it away from me and dont expect me to contribute or pay for it in some way.

claeyt and the scum like him want to tell YOU whats best for YOU, and you better listen or else! or else he will go hide under the skirt of a butch lesbian!

[saltmummy]

What's your point? If I am the kind of person who wants one, all the deterrents in the world aren't going to stop me. The deterrent only means anything if you get caught, and by that point you already screwed up and got caught. If people are afraid of getting caught, then why do they still do it? They still do it here, they still do it there. So what is the point of the deterrent when the people doing the crimes are still willing to risk the punishment to do them? What are we gonna do, make the punishments steeper? We did that with drug crime here, all it did was put relatively minor offenders in prison for draconian sentences and barely made a dent in drug crime.

[Claeyt]

clearly brazil is a low crime utopia thanks to their gun laws!

You can just continue yapping and yammer on as much as you want but it's silly to argue that less guns through more control over guns doesn't lead to lower gun murders when the facts prove you wrong over and over.

What's your point? If I am the kind of person who wants one, all the deterrents in the world aren't going to stop me. The deterrent only means anything if you get caught, and by that point you already screwed up and got caught. If people are afraid of getting caught, then why do they still do it? They still do it here, they still do it there. So what is the point of the deterrent when the people doing the crimes are still willing to risk the punishment to do them? What are we gonna do, make the punishments steeper? We did that with drug crime here, all it did was put relatively minor offenders in prison for draconian sentences and barely made a dent in drug crime.

Guns are different than drugs in many, many ways. One, they are only mass produced in government regulated factories and generally are only initially distributed through government regulated ways. There are no hidden factories mass producing guns. European gun law has proven that although it's impossible to completely halt guns being imported from other countries it's not impossible to severely restrict gun supplies to criminals. Of course guns can be smuggled into countries that doesn't mean it's easy. Two, there is no profit in selling guns in Europe or in Australia. Unlike drugs guns are never used by anyone but criminals for need. Nobody buys an illegal weapon in Australia because they're addicted to it like drugs. Guns are specifically imported illegally for use by criminals and not for the general population. This means there aren't that many of them. Australia, Canada and Europe and even places like India have proven that making importing weapons hard is easy. Third world countries like Brazil are exposed to the guns from large criminal organizations. Many of the guns in Brazil and South America are brought in from uncontrolled borders with places like Columbia. The reason it's impossible to get a gun in India while it's not that hard to get a gun in Brazil is because India has pretty strict control over it's borders.

As for making guns. If you're willing to risk 5 years in Prison making a cheap knock off gun in the UK then you're going to do it. A better example is the Neo-Nazi mass shooter in Norway. Because of lax parts importation laws he was able to import a gun in parts over something like 9 months and make what he couldn't import. Norway of course has radically changed it's import laws concerning gun parts to fill this oversight making it even harder for another mass shooting to happen there. Of course some small fraction of criminals is going to be able to make cheap guns somehow. This doesn't mean that they'll be everywhere or that it'll be profitable to own one.

i would also like to point out the true nature of a "tolerant" and "open minded" liberal.

claeyt has done nothing since coming into this thread except try to have me and others banned for earth shattering words like "****", demanded a picture of a german general (rommel?) be removed and proceed to tell everyone their rights should be stolen and they should be thrown in jail for choosing to defend themselves.

they are also the ones who always want to raise our countries taxes astronomically to "redistribute the wealth" from those who earned and deserve it to worthless piles of **** that want a free lunch.


me? folks like me? we really dont give a ***** what you do or how just so long as you do it away from me and dont expect me to contribute or pay for it in some way.

claeyt and the scum like him want to tell YOU whats best for YOU, and you better listen or else! or else he will go hide under the skirt of a butch lesbian!

Coward Triggered.

[saltmummy]

Again, If they want one, they'll get one. If they can't get one, they'll make one. No amount of law will stop it. Slow it maybe, but not stop it. It all comes back to a very basic fundamental part of human nature; If they really want it, they will do their damn hardest to get it. It's as simple as that. Yeah, guns aren't drugs, but the punishments still mean nothing to the people willing to commit crimes to get them, improvised or not, and no law will change that either.

I don't even know why I'm involved in this now, It really is like arguing with a particularly inert lump of coal isn't it Darwoth?

[Inotdead]

I am triggered by your misuse of the word "triggered"
Stop this

[Claeyt]

Again, If they want one, they'll get one. If they can't get one, they'll make one. No amount of law will stop it. Slow it maybe, but not stop it. It all comes back to a very basic fundamental part of human nature; If they really want it, they will do their damn hardest to get it. It's as simple as that. Yeah, guns aren't drugs, but the punishments still mean nothing to the people willing to commit crimes to get them, improvised or not, and no law will change that either.

Again, other countries have successfully limited guns from being made in their countries, not completely but enough that guns are extremely rare. Of course you can't get rid of all of them forever but you can make it hard enough that gun homicides are 10x less likely as in the United States. Why argue about this if the fact remains that less guns that are harder to get means less gun deaths.

We can go round and round with this but the fact remains that stricter gun laws work, have always worked and will continue to work in countries with the will to use them.