America

[Flame]

Fine, let's try to change strategy.
Freedom is wonderful and it's great.

Should the thread end here now?


Is like expecting that i say "Italy is all about pizza, sun and spaghetti!". Don't be surprised by the example, we really worship the good food as almost the only thing that keeps us unite. Good food means friends. Bad food is a betrayal of our trust and a poison for our children. Food is health and future, that's why we care about it. Those who create bad food are strongly opposed like if they'r attempting at out freedom. (You may have noticed that italian people talks a lot about food.)
So i could definitely say that Italy it's all about good food and close the argument even when someone asks me to talk about something else, aside from the good food.
But I won't stop there, since an ideal is not a whole country.

I know many times where your freedom is largely abused. Companies that abuse the free market and steal your money legally. I would expect you to tell me about this, in order to show me the full of your country and point me out how important is to defend the freedom and prevent thievery.
I know many situation where your freedom to speech is bypassed legally with hypocrisy, where "good" associations that report their experience on the "bad part" of the world are strongly financed by politician, turning that freedom to speech into propaganda. You should show this to me to proof that you see it, and you fight it.
I see many contradiction in how your politic system works and the freedom ideal, and i would see you discuss about this in order to plan an improvement, or wish for it.
I see that you have the freedom to be ill and die on a street, but not the freedom to be healed.
And the freedom to be great at school, going to the university with a scholarship, but then that have to be payed it back like if it was a loan and not a right. And you should complain on how this system is greed and cuts your inner grow.

But i don't see you talk of this, so i think you're not aware of it.
So i try to punch a bit of your freedom back to reality and see if you actually know more about your country, or not.

As i said earlier, i'm not against freedom and there's no reason to say it's stupid, but i'm not happy to see a whole population talk about it without show more a deeper knowledge of his own country.






EDIT
Now that i think of it, this sounds weird to me.

As your friend flame, I feel it's good that you get input from many people instead of just one person.

What imput O.o?
The problem i'm facing here is the total lack of imputs. We are just talking about a daily task that every human have to face daily. Protect the freedom and the human rights.
Even if important, that's not enough as imput to describe a country.

And if it is enough, i then lack imputs from you on how this could describe me the political/economic/foreign policy/legislation/population parts of the USA.

It doesn't explain me why prisons are private and get moneys from the state for each prisoners they have in, inciting prisons to get more prisoners in order to get more money, so inciting corruption in the trial. This is against the idea of redemption of a prisoner. Why prisons should set up a system to redeem a prisoner if this lowers the chance to have it back and get more money?
I see this a danger to the freedom of redeem ourselves.

So, yeah, basically i lack a lots of imputs on how you exactly defend the freedom.
To me, seems that you just believe it's completely defended by you bosses and so you ignore how it is not in many ways. That's my worring and the reason i'm "fighting" this bar chat here.

You BELIEVE in freedom or you fight to OBTAIN it?



Ps: i will stab you from behind when a zombie is coming. Beware >;D

[Flame]

-whoops, double post---

[TotalyMeow]

Freedom is wonderful and it's great.

Should the thread end here now?

Now I wonder if you realize that this thread is mostly just joking.

Those who create bad food are strongly opposed like if they'r attempting at out freedom.

In my experience, most bad food is either an accident or the people who cooked it had wooden palettes and didn't know any better. They really thought the food was decent. I'm not sure what that says about politics.

I know many times where your freedom is largely abused. Companies that abuse the free market and steal your money legally. I would expect you to tell me about this, in order to show me the full of your country and point me out how important is to defend the freedom and prevent thievery.
I know many situation where your freedom to speech is bypassed legally with hypocrisy, where "good" associations that report their experience on the "bad part" of the world are strongly financed by politician, turning that freedom to speech into propaganda. You should show this to me to proof that you see it, and you fight it.

I get it now. So your true complaint is that you think the entirety of American is living in an illusion of freedom. That the freedoms in the bill of rights don't actually exist, we just think they do, while we're actually being herded like sheep by large corporations and politicians? Well, you seem to be slightly confused by the law, but most people are. Freedom of speech, for example, doesn't mean that anyone can say anything anywhere, it just means that no government, not the federal government or any state government or any local one, can make a law restricting your right to stand on a street corner and babble about the end of the world or rant about whatever you want in your blog. Even banned books are only banned from being taught in schools and kept in libraries. They can still be published and bought and read and talked about. Freedom of speech doesn't mean people have to tell the truth, not even the government has to. So, yeah, politicians can still lie and anyone can print propaganda and try to convince you it's true. But freedom of speech means that if someone knows the truth, they can still try to tell everyone about it without fear of being arrested. And as for people trying to defend what the bill of rights gives them, there's plenty of that around. Every time there's talk of a law that might impact the bill of rights, there are protests left and right and sometimes even riots (see gun laws for easy examples). And so far, none of those laws have been actually amended in the constitution, though there are a few restricting laws, like you can't publish Top Secret material, but overall people definitely do protest and fight when they think their amendment rights are about to be violated or restricted by a new law.

I see that you have the freedom to be ill and die on a street, but not the freedom to be healed.
And the freedom to be great at school, going to the university with a scholarship, but then that have to be payed it back like if it was a loan and not a right. And you should complain on how this system is greed and cuts your inner grow.

We have a lot of taxpayer paid healthcare, food stamps, housing subsidies, welfare, disability payouts, etc., meant to help people in need. Very few people die of neglect in the US. Our healthcare system does have problems, but the problem isn't that our healthcare isn't 'free'. It's never free you know, if the government is paying for it all, that just means you are paying for it. The main problem is that there's an imbalance between health insurance and healthcare such that the free market isn't working as it should and so healthcare is much more expensive for some than it should be.

And of course higher education isn't a right. While I can agree with taxes paying for the first 13 grades of school on the principle that most people will have a kid in the public school system at some point and also because they are children and should be cared for by all, I can't agree with paying for an adult's schooling without them at least showing some merit. Scholarships exist that give money to people wanting an education so long as they've qualified through academic hard work, and that's okay. Otherwise, we have student loan programs with fairly low interest and the option to wait a year or two before starting to pay those loans back, long enough to get some kind of job, and that is fair.

But i don't see you talk of this, so i think you're not aware of it.
So i try to punch a bit of your freedom back to reality and see if you actually know more about your country, or not.

As i said earlier, i'm not against freedom and there's no reason to say it's stupid, but i'm not happy to see a whole population talk about it without show more a deeper knowledge of his own country.

Mostly this thread was just a joke so no one was seriously trying to talk about freedom. But you seem so very concerned about it, we can be serious. Some of us can.

We are just talking about a daily task that every human have to face daily. Protect the freedom and the human rights.
Even if important, that's not enough as imput to describe a country.

Well we can talk about capitalism or some other defining characteristic of American society, but all you've been talking about so far is 'freedom' and your concept of it.

It doesn't explain me why prisons are private and get moneys from the state for each prisoners they have in, inciting prisons to get more prisoners in order to get more money, so inciting corruption in the trial.

It doesn't work that way. Trials are not in any way influenced by prisons.

This is against the idea of redemption of a prisoner. Why prisons should set up a system to redeem a prisoner if this lowers the chance to have it back and get more money?

Our penal system is not focused on redemption. If it were, it would be set up entirely differently. It's set up around locking up troublemakers for awhile so they can't make trouble. It's a terrible system, but the difficulties in fixing it are so insurmountable that no one has tried yet. Probably going to end badly in the long run.

You BELIEVE in freedom or you fight to OBTAIN it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party
And the entire revolutionary war.
http://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/american-civil-war-history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
http://www.biography.com/people/martin-luther-king-jr-9365086#synopsis
http://www.history.com/topics/womens-history/the-fight-for-womens-suffrage
http://www.history.com/topics/vietnam-war/vietnam-war-protests
http://time.com/184/gay-rights-timeline/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-globalization_movement
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2011/10/25/tea-party-vs-occupy-wall-street
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-03-15/news/ct-met-persepolis-book-students-0317-20130317_1_cps-students-executive-officer-barbara-byrd-bennett-graphic-novel
And on and on and on and on...

[Multra]

[saltmummy]

Ps: i will stab you from behind when a zombie is coming. Beware >;D

That's fine, I'm the admin of the server and I've got more roaches for you to eat, roach eater ;:D

[TotalyMeow]

You guys are hilarious.

[Flame]

You just killed me with that damned roach, you tyrant. Resurrect me! è__é

you think the bill of rights don't actually exist, we just think they do, while we're actually being herded like sheep by large corporations and politicians?

It's more grey than that, and it's not just "you" as Usa.
Yeah, i know, a grey color is often not used much in a discussion, but believe me, i'm not going to join any extreme association with a conspiracy theory, talking about huge plans about turn us into sheeps.
To me, the attempt to turn Rights into Illusions is a daily task of whoever have some power, so no conspiracies or weird aliens are needed to be aware of it. In many cases, we really are sheep, daily, but ignore all the other cases were we aren't is stupid. Is a quick way to feel really sad and strife for suicide. (Or scream against evil photoshopped reptilians XD)

I'm a bit sad that most of your links are about big events in the far past. Two full generations have passed since the big mass was fighting, so, even if is something to be proud of (i'm proud of the fight we had in my country too), it's not something that belongs to you or to me. That's too much old.
I've also read the other links, but i've not seen what i'm wishing to see.
I could get a list of all the minority that protest in Italy and all the cases where a minor law is opposed successfully.

Yet, the main lead of a country can't be changed by a book ban or not.

I could also say "Whatever, keeps your ignorance and have a nice life, this does't involve me" but that's exactly the reason why i'm talking here. It Completely Involve Me even if i don't want.

Outside countries, pushed by U.S. economy, are applying U.S. dynamics into our countries. Sadly, those dynamics are only economy rules in favor of companies to deny rights to emplyers, and the freedom propaganda is a way to make it taste like sugar.
I'm not happy that the food supervision will be lowered to apply the U.S. standard in order to allow you to export more **** here. If we have a standard that we wish to protect, you should just stick with it, but the "freedom market" disapprove any control.
Neither i'm happy about your privatizing system insinuating into my country system, destroying our inner balance in the worse way.
The Freedom word coming from U.S. is used to justify every alteration of a system that simply doesn't works like yours.

So, the best plan, is to ask to the U.S. people to fix their freedom bugs, since is where they are coming from.
But then, all i see is people ***** about gays or books, and no one that is actually complaining about the core of a country. The economy.

Every rule is made for economy. The Freedom you fought for, was a fight to gain economy independence.
If i want to do something useful for my country, is to talk to the ones that are exporting and imposing their system through economy power, and ask to them to improve their society.

Close your eyes for a bit and ignore the freedom word. Call it Rights end Equality. Try to imagine all the situations where that equality is invisible and work on that.
Go on the street to ask to your country to copy others where they are better, for once.
Go on the street and protest for the huge lack in human rights and demand that kind of freedom.

This will be really useful for a large part of the world, since i'm slowly loosing my tutelage as a worker. Little by little we are applying your laws. And, honestly, those sucks quite a bit. XD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rig ... ted_States

You guys are hilarious.

Yeah. I've noticed that converse about something a bit more complicate than a screenshot looks eccentric for foreigners. To me, this topic is not serious. Is just normal and i feel normal to talk about these things.
If it looks like a sort of fight, is just scene and empathy, not hating. Not from me, at least. XD
(it also forces me to google a lots of words.)

[TotalyMeow]

I'm a bit sad that most of your links are about big events in the far past. Two full generations have passed since the big mass was fighting, so, even if is something to be proud of (i'm proud of the fight we had in my country too), it's not something that belongs to you or to me. That's too much old.

Whoa whoa whoa, I don't consider most of those to be old events. I know I'm probably older than many here, but come on. Most of those are ongoing or happened within the last couple years.

I could get a list of all the minority that protest in Italy and all the cases where a minor law is opposed successfully.

Sure, but this is about you claiming that Americans entirely define their worldview on being the only country in the world that is 'free'. You're actually the only one seriously claiming that. I entirely believe that Italy has a large number of freedoms as well, though I'm sure I wouldn't agree with all your laws and principles.

Outside countries, pushed by U.S. economy, are applying U.S. dynamics into our countries. Sadly, those dynamics are only economy rules in favor of companies to deny rights to emplyers, and the freedom propaganda is a way to make it taste like sugar.
I'm not happy that the food supervision will be lowered to apply the U.S. standard in order to allow you to export more **** here. If we have a standard that we wish to protect, you should just stick with it, but the "freedom market" disapprove any control.
Neither i'm happy about your privatizing system insinuating into my country system, destroying our inner balance in the worse way.
The Freedom word coming from U.S. is used to justify every alteration of a system that simply doesn't works like yours.

That sounds like a fault of your government. You should protest.

I've noticed that converse about something a bit more complicate than a screenshot looks eccentric for foreigners. To me, this topic is not serious. Is just normal and i feel normal to talk about these things.

How refreshingly bigoted.

[saltmummy]

Oh jegus flame, the links were intended to show that American's do indeed believe and fight for their freedoms. Just because it happened in the past doesn't mean it's not relevant. The only way they would not be relevant is the fake non-relevance of a country trying to ignore it's past so they can try and forget some dark thing in that history. When you forget/ignore the past, both good and bad things, you forget/ignore what brought you to where you are and why you have what you have. Furthermore, by refusing to acknowledge the importance of your history, you doom yourself to the slavery of ignorance and repetition. This is why Meow linked these "old" events and people. They are defining moments in our history, and examples of just how badly we want what we have, and just a taste of how far we will go to keep it.

A better response than saying that our history is irrelevant, would have been to post links to historical events and people that Italy is fond of remembering and helped shape what it is today.

Two full generations have passed since the big mass was fighting, so, even if is something to be proud of (i'm proud of the fight we had in my country too), it's not something that belongs to you or to me. That's too much old.

This is the kind of attitude towards the past deeply offends my sensibilities. As a Native American descendent, do you think I can ever simply ignore what happened when the italians, spanish, english, french, etc. etc. etc came here? Why would I forget that? Because it doesn't "belong" to me? My relatives are still living on reservations because of people and events none of them have a living memory of.

I've got five big juicy roaches for you, nice and fresh. (though not served out of malice, more for our own entertainment.)

[Flame]

I wonder what's wrong here.
I've not said that you should dig a hole and put history in it to forget it.

I'm just saying that i'm talking with you right now to know you better and know your plans. I can't talk to those who did those fights, most of them are dead or old, and the actual things going on don't involve arguments i feel of big importance. (But really, i saw two links about actual things. Those book thing and the modern tea dudes. o.o)
Small steps are useful, but i see no big steps incoming, so i'm digging here to explore it.

That sounds like a fault of your government. You should protest.

If my government is changing into a copy of your, you can start to protest now and save me a lot of work. I'll do the same in this side of the ocean, indeed. I think you can hit the core more than me, though.

How refreshingly bigoted.

I really have noticed that, it's not a stolen sentence. And i'm a bit surprised, but is well know that italians talks a lot of burning arguments. People from outside often think we are having a fight even when we are just talking. So i'll just accept this. XD

Anyway i'm a bit confused by these last two post, since i don't recall to have said things like "History is useless" or something like that. I say that I didn't did the history and you didn't did it. So, in order to fulfil what history is there for, we should think on how fullfil the present.

But since i've just translated "Pocket money" as "Portable Monkey", i'll take a break from english and i'll go to sleep now.