Removing Trial by Combat

[Darwoth]

yeah that would be quite stupid, either remove the tbc and simply revert scents to the way they used to be + ad a lock function to keep retards from running away again when you flatten the town to get to them or leave **** how it is you do not get to have your cake and eat it to.

and yeah, i do not give a ***** if it needs a large area or not. it took me a hell of a lot longer to fortify my island than it would have taken me to build several land based vaults, i have built over 250 border stones in a single saturday before which is more than is needed, just like with anything else if you are not willing to put the effort in than you do not deserve the reward.

raiding is meant for those who do put the work in and then take the risk, not a bunch of ***** newbs, which is why i am the only one that has hit anything of note in the past year.

[jakhollin]

all i see is a bunch of retard newbs and/or people who have always been newb raiders whining because they are to inept or lazy to make a proper vault,

Ahh, Darwoth Sweetie... don't insult people.
We all should really stop to call people retards.

A "proper" vault could help... but you know it needs a really, really big area.
And be honest, even you had not this vault, if you have just started to raid.

I don't like the idea to remove the TbC, because you will not have the chance to bring justice to some people anymore.
Better would be that you can't evade a TbC only because you build a base for leantos outside of range.
And i like it to see, that the punishment is variable.
Larceny should not cause in a death, but you should loose your hand. If it happened twice, the Character will loose the second hand and the ability to perform Larency.
Revenge to a Murder should not be handled like a murder. Because it is a never ending Story.
Revenge to a Theft maybe should handle like a Murder, in cause of proportionality.
Criminals should not be killed by TbC, instead they should port to a courtroom in Providence...

Yes now we come to my idea of this Justice System:

You may track a criminal. And if you see him in Wilderness, you can perform vigilantism with all of the consequences like now.
But if you find a defended home of a criminal, you have to break in (TbF) to perform vigilantism.
If you don't be able to break in, you can put a TbC and the "Sheriff" will catch him to the Courtroom.
There will be a prison and it will follow a trial.
The trial will set the punishment depending on the criminal act.
There could be possibilities to evade from the prison, a deposit to get free again with a mark for the next trial or influence of other citizen.
The previous options like stocks should be a part of this justice system... the justice points too.

Sideeffect would be, that we will have more publicity of a trial and more social interacting in Providence town.

You open this up to corruption. Imagine Goodman comes to the front of my base and kills me just for fun. No one is really going to care so much or know much about it. So the trial will go as follows my new character gets out voted by all the other KKK and he goes free.

[Procne]

People I played with complained a lot about Trial by Combat. The thing that annoyed them the most was the fact that commiting any summonable crime always meant the death of their character, without a chance to defend. I remember devs countering it with having people taking turns on guarding the character 24/7. This always made me laugh, as it's utterly ridicolous with the current community and factions, which aren't big.

Personally, I think the system changed some rules a lot, and many players simply did not want to adapt. The fact that commiting crime against someone comes at a cost of a character(s) simply means that people should focus on creating alts factories, instead building their one, main character. Want to destroy some town? Then be prepared to build bashers AND then lose them. After all it's still smaller effort than was put into building such town. And that's another thing that people didn't like - Salem became a game about making alts. Instead of building titans, make 10 easily replacable alts. Is that good or bad?

I also have a feeling that the current PvP system would work great with big factions. There is a huge overhead cost involved in town vs town combat (assuming both sides know what they're doing and don't just give up their town and die in kamikaze duel feats), which is ok for big games like EVE. Sieges in EVE require time, coordination, large number of people and effort - usually both sides end up losing some ships. It's similar in Salem - think of characters as of ships, not actual players, in EVE. But with several-people-big factions of Salem - I don't think anyone finds it worth the effort. Is that good or bad?

Well, Providence was supposed to be carebear world, but rules for expedition haven't really changed. Arguably the only change were the cannons, which is another mechanic speaking for big factions - it's kinda binary mechanic unless your faction is big enough to be able to mount a fighting party at any point in time.

[Kralith]

Oh Darwoth, is it quite possible to do a conversation without whole "****", "dumb", "*****", "*****" and "retard" words?

It was only a suggestion and here we are in Ideas&Innovations.
It must be possible to discuss some things without insulting people!

I know you are the only one who seems to be successful in last year, but would it not bring more fun if there were more people who do it like you?
You don't support it with spitting to people who just beginn to learn how to raid.
You should support them with any hints.

Anyway, this Suggestion of the OP was made to discuss the sides of TbC, we do it.
And it is not the first time that i heared some critic to the TbC System, why not speak about changes of our Justice System?

The last word will have JC like everytime.

[thedarklore]

Oh Darwoth, is it quite possible to do a conversation without whole "****", "dumb", "*****", "*****" and "retard" words?

It was only a suggestion and here we are in Ideas&Innovations.
It must be possible to discuss some things without insulting people!

I know you are the only one who seems to be successful in last year, but would it not bring more fun if there were more people who do it like you?
You don't support it with spitting to people who just beginn to learn how to raid.
You should support them with any hints.

Anyway, this Suggestion of the OP was made to discuss the sides of TbC, we do it.
And it is not the first time that i heared some critic to the TbC System, why not speak about changes of our Justice System?

The last word will have JC like everytime.

The king won't give his crown that easy...

[Feone]

tldr: remove summon, add mechanic to make attacking hermits, newbies not be worth the risk. Details below.

As a peaceful pilgrim (I like the crafting, building, gathering, dislike just about all the pvp aspects other than the general feel of paranoia) I'm somewhat conflicted on this.

I like that criminals get punished and that peaceful pilgrims have some recourse when attacked.
On the other hand I have to agree that crime=death seems too harsh, and summoning is a lame mechanic that just about everyone seems to hate.
I also hate that randomly murdering someone out in the wild is far easier than breaking in and stealing items. Or that there's practically no reason not to murder/destroy everything just for the trolling value when you've broken in anyway.

The ideal system, in my opinion, allows the following without special punishment. (Punishment other than the crime debuffs, resource/time cost and risk of pissing off other players from the attempt to commit these):
- Groups/individuals of similar strength fighting eachother. (Strong factions v Strong factions, hermits v hermits etc.)
- Theft (Including breaking in and/or KOing those who would prevent the theft but not needless random destruction, murder etc beyond that)
- Self defense against any form of hostility.

While at the same time bringing disproportionate risk on the following (Making sure it is not worthwhile doing, unless there is a strong motivation other than trolling.) :
- Indiscriminate attack,destruction, murder by the strong against weaker players/groups. Well established factions wiping out newbies, hermits etc.

Removing summoning would probably accomplish the first part while negating the second part.
Combining its removal with a witchcraft-based mechanic could fix that. (Note I know nothing of current witchcraft mechanics / witches, other than that they are probably scary for hermits like myself.)

I could see the horrible injustice of indiscriminate random murder and destruction be the perfect thing for a witch to latch on to and use to do unspeakable things to the perpetrator(s) and those they live with. Naturally exploiting this resource of crime would be a lot of work or it could backfire if attempted on something not injusticy enough so the witches would only want to go after the really juicy injustices for maximal carnage. (Or whatever it is that motivates witches.) Allowing this to deter attacks on newbies, hermits and peaceful players without paralyzing all other forms of pvp or making the former impossible. Having ones family character(s) murdered and home destroyed for no particular reason would, in fact, be the perfect motivation to sell ones soul to evil in exchange for the power to complete some diabolic plot of revenge.

[Dallane]

tldr: remove summon, add mechanic to make attacking hermits, newbies not be worth the risk.

this statement alone makes whatever come after it retarded and not fit for this game.

[Kralith]

I think too, that it is not a good idea to saving newbies or harmless player from that crimesystem in a special way.

And our crime system is nice as it is.

Only for the Justice system i wish me more publicity.
The TbC gives only publicity if the people who was involved write about in forum.
But would it not more nice if it would more public for people in town if someone calls a criminal out, not only through stocks?
I think on public execution, like it was made in this time where salem plays.
Public trials could be indeed very funny for the whole community.
Lets make public events of trial of a murder!

On the other hand it should be always possible to do self justice in the "hiding" way like it is now.

[TotalyMeow]

I've never thought the TbC worked out very well in practice and would agree with removing it and doing something similar to what Darwoth suggests.

tldr: remove summon, add mechanic to make attacking hermits, newbies not be worth the risk. Details below.

I did read the details, and I don't see why we'd ever want to do anything like this. I also don't see how it could possibly be implemented.

[Taipion]

Let's throw another one in here:
- remove MMori (remove from the game, completely, giver owners a shop credit in exchange + remove from the shop ofc)
- increase requirements for murder (cain & abel) to 300 all/most proficiencies like it is for the carrying skills (collector, packrat, hoarder)

Also:
- raise requirements for other "crimes" in the same way according to how high/serious they are

The basic idea is to not simply put a blocker in between you and crime, but set requirements that a normally developed char of that level (read: not cheap alt) should either have anyway or should be able to get without too much effort.



Only then start to rework the crime system, and maybe we see less alts and more thrill.