It's time to Nuke 'Dev Island'.

[Darwoth]

you are hopelessly clueless and i am done responding to you.

[TotalyMeow]

To remove [Trial by Fire] completely would require 2 things: Walls would need to take much longer to destroy for enemies of the town and Townbells would need to be indestructable again. I wouldn't mind that so much.

No, walls would stay the same and town bells would definitely need to still be destructable lest your town be strangled by a donut town that can never be removed. There should always be a way to destroy any structure in the game and right now there is. Mine entrances are an exception but they also can't be built just anywhere so that mitigates any potential problem there.

What about this as an idea:

What if any member of a town under a TbF or TbC could freely commit waste outside of their town but under the acting TbF or TbC without leaving a scent. We need to see more action against walled in TbF's and TbC's. What's stopping people isn't that they can't break into the Donuted TbF's and TbC's, it's that they don't want to leave summonable scents for the raiders to summon them with.

Darwoth explained this, but you objected as if you didn't understand. If there is a town around a waste claim and an enemy town under the claim as well, and scents will not be left by any citizen of those towns destroying things under a waste claim, then not only will the citizens of the enemy town be able to destroy the donut town with no consequences, the raider will also be able to destroy the enemy town and anything in it with no consequences. I don't see how you think this is a good thing.

I think most people wouldn't mind seeing more action in raiding, but with less risk involved.

By 'less risk' you seem to mean 'no risk'. There already isn't that much risk involved in using the right defense. Risk is part of this game, an integral part that will never be removed.

Salem players all play the game differently. ... Very, very few people actually raid much and most of us just want to build and plant and explore. Why is it so hard to let more than just your small idea about how to play the game exist?

Oh, but we do. We understand that many people only want to be peaceful and we've made it so that anyone can do so for at least a little while. We figured most groups would last a few months before needing to fight for their right to be carebears, some maybe years. But we do expect them to fight eventually. It's always just a matter of time. Salem is a game designed for people who love the risk and terror that comes with the potential to lose Everything, or to risk Everything for a big reward. I don't know how many times i have to beat you over the head with that point, but I know I've said it many times now. There are a million carebear games out there, this isn't one of them. It's for those who want just what this game provides, scary fun risks.

Maybe it's as simple as not allowing TbF's or TbC's shadow's to touch more than one town.

I'd like to know how you think this could be worked out. We had something similar when the TbF first came out and it was changed because it didn't work.

There has to be a way to prevent people from building siege towns right next to other towns. Maybe we could just make it so you can't build another town within 10,000 tiles or something where it's far enough out that a town doesn't have to face a donuted TbF or TbC.

Wow, and what about the towns that are already within 10,000 tiles of each other? Who gets nuked? You realize more towns would be destroyed by that change than by any 10 Darwoths? Besides that, all a town donut really does is let a raider not stand by the TbF for the 4 or so hours that it is vulnerable but not active, which is very very boring if you've ever done it and I'm not all that sorry that it can be avoided. If a raider is standing there instead, you'll still have to go through him to get to the TbF to destroy it. That means risking characters in open combat and leaving combat scents. How is that so different?

[Darwoth]

the best part about the claegues no towns within 10k tiles of each other suggestion is that he fails to realize any moderately wealthy player could control huge swaths of the map for free once they built and fortified their bells.

if something like that was patched in on a friday i would control the entire darkness region of the game by sunday then claeyt would be crying about that, how he should be able to have a town in the darkness to farm darkness monsters he is to newb to fight etc.


even on a single town basis it is ridiculous, according to claeyt someone paying about 30 silver a day (if they even paid the upkeep which most do not) should not be able to control just the confines of their town claim but also a HUNDRED MILLION square meters (or triple that depending on placement of the town on the map) of game map around said claim......




with such a retarded mechanic you could literally drop ten towns on the server and have dominance over pretty much every high value area, what a ***** retard.

[Claeyt]

the best part about the claegues no towns within 10k tiles of each other suggestion is that he fails to realize any moderately wealthy player could control huge swaths of the map for free once they built and fortified their bells.

if something like that was patched in on a friday i would control the entire darkness region of the game by sunday then claeyt would be crying about that, how he should be able to have a town in the darkness to farm darkness monsters he is to newb to fight etc.

It's saying something about how broken the money system is if you think you could afford to drop 100 bells in a weekend.

Fine then something less than 10,000 tiles.

To remove [Trial by Fire] completely would require 2 things: Walls would need to take much longer to destroy for enemies of the town and Townbells would need to be indestructable again. I wouldn't mind that so much.

No, walls would stay the same and town bells would definitely need to still be destructable lest your town be strangled by a donut town that can never be removed. There should always be a way to destroy any structure in the game and right now there is. Mine entrances are an exception but they also can't be built just anywhere so that mitigates any potential problem there.

There has to be a basic time that people can feel safe. I don't mind if it's 24 hours but we're talking about people having to be on every 4 hours to check currently if they only have brick walls and don't want to lose absolutely everything when the raider takes out their bell and steals all their keys.

What about this as an idea:

What if any member of a town under a TbF or TbC could freely commit waste outside of their town but under the acting TbF or TbC without leaving a scent. We need to see more action against walled in TbF's and TbC's. What's stopping people isn't that they can't break into the Donuted TbF's and TbC's, it's that they don't want to leave summonable scents for the raiders to summon them with.

Darwoth explained this, but you objected as if you didn't understand. If there is a town around a waste claim and an enemy town under the claim as well, and scents will not be left by any citizen of those towns destroying things under a waste claim, then not only will the citizens of the enemy town be able to destroy the donut town with no consequences, the raider will also be able to destroy the enemy town and anything in it with no consequences. I don't see how you think this is a good thing.

I was trying to put it with the no towns nearby idea but what if instead of a shadow TbF's and TbC's were against specific townbells instead with a larger shadow for the TbF or TbC of say 51x51 (the same size as a townbell) and they then couldn't be built next to another town just like if the raiders were trying to place a townbell claim. Getting rid of Donuted towns has to be a goal of yours otherwise why make townbells destructible in the fist place. If donuted towns aren't a thing anymore you can go back to having nice big towns with permanent townbells and maybe even make walls easier to take down and nerf defenses. I think we all agree that we want more raiding and combat but with less permanent destruction of towns. The permanent destruction of towns is what's making the long term players leave the game right now.

I think most people wouldn't mind seeing more action in raiding, but with less risk involved.

By 'less risk' you seem to mean 'no risk'. There already isn't that much risk involved in using the right defense. Risk is part of this game, an integral part that will never be removed.

I think the risk should look like being looted of all your steel and nice stuff with the high possibility of losing criminal characters and combat characters in epic battles and sword fights at the town gates with the defenders then being able to pick up the pieces, put out the fires and rebuild towards revenge. With the townbell destruction and simply stealing keys out of lean to's we have now, players can lose absolutely everything they built, own or made and at that point it's absolutely impossible to catch up or revenge their loss so they are just quitting. It's impossible for players to play 24/7 for many RL reasons and because of that they shouldn't lose everything.

I want to see more risk like 'The Battle at Lake Nod' rather than people losing whole towns and all their characters within the town because they had to get some sleep or go to work that day.

Salem players all play the game differently. ... Very, very few people actually raid much and most of us just want to build and plant and explore. Why is it so hard to let more than just your small idea about how to play the game exist?

Oh, but we do. We understand that many people only want to be peaceful and we've made it so that anyone can do so for at least a little while. We figured most groups would last a few months before needing to fight for their right to be carebears, some maybe years. But we do expect them to fight eventually. It's always just a matter of time. Salem is a game designed for people who love the risk and terror that comes with the potential to lose Everything, or to risk Everything for a big reward. I don't know how many times i have to beat you over the head with that point, but I know I've said it many times now. There are a million carebear games out there, this isn't one of them. It's for those who want just what this game provides, scary fun risks.

When people lose everything they quit the game. That's the whole problem. They don't rebuild, they don't seek revenge because they know they'll never be able to attack or take on the raiders who destroyed their bell and stole their keys. So what's the point? Darwoth slowly strangles Arcadia hoping for waste scents if they try and defend until he finally puts up a permanent TbF for weeks and then breaks in, destroys the bell, steals their keys and traps all their top guys and takes everything they've built and worked for? How is that a good game if stuff like that can happen to a big relatively active town? The game can't grow like that.

There shouldn't be a requirement in a game that you be available 24/7 and have to maintain a call list in case you're attacked. The building time and development time of a town just takes too long. We'll never see large successful towns anymore with open recruiting and such. If we want a real political system with large towns with inner-political systems instead of just no-life small groups raiding everyone and set, standard cemented groups being able to attack anyone then the game needs changes. If you guys just want to see the same groups be on top for the next 3 years then what's the point? Nothing's going to change unless Darwoth just up and quits the game. The same thing happened on every server last world. The large cemented top teams just won with no new competition after the initial scramble. There has to be a new way for new players to get into the battle besides just building a town hidden somewhere.

Maybe it's as simple as not allowing TbF's or TbC's shadow's to touch more than one town.

I'd like to know how you think this could be worked out. We had something similar when the TbF first came out and it was changed because it didn't work.

I don't remember it like that. Why didn't it work? Either way I mentioned above maybe you could make it so it had to be within a certain distance to attack a town, make it specific to the town it's meant to attack and make it so it's say 51x51 like a townbell shadow and it can't be within a certain range of another town. This way it could be out in the open or behind a Pclaimed area. Maybe you could make it so that anyone from the defending town could attack anything within the 51x51 TbF, TbC townbell sized area without leaving a waste scent. This would defeat the Donuted TbF problem or at least make it so the donuted area would have to be huge and harder to build defenses for.

There has to be a way to prevent people from building siege towns right next to other towns. Maybe we could just make it so you can't build another town within 10,000 tiles or something where it's far enough out that a town doesn't have to face a donuted TbF or TbC.

Wow, and what about the towns that are already within 10,000 tiles of each other? Who gets nuked? You realize more towns would be destroyed by that change than by any 10 Darwoths? Besides that, all a town donut really does is let a raider not stand by the TbF for the 4 or so hours that it is vulnerable but not active, which is very very boring if you've ever done it and I'm not all that sorry that it can be avoided. If a raider is standing there instead, you'll still have to go through him to get to the TbF to destroy it. That means risking characters in open combat and leaving combat scents. How is that so different?

It's different if instead you're just harvesting summonable Waste scents like what Darwoth did at L33's village and Arcadia. The whole point of donuted towns is to make the defenders HAVE to attack the raiders so they can collect waste scents and such. When the raider has unlimited silver like Darwoth has (because of another broken mechanic in my opinion) then there's zero reason for the raider to not do it like this and we end up with Darwoth building as many siege towns as he wants and him leaving 900s per day TbF's up for weeks at a time without even feeling it in his wallet.

----------------------------------

I mentioned this months ago but why can't TbF's and TbC's get exponentially more expensive? Why can't they be 500s the first day, 1000s the second and so on and on, and if the town runs out of money then the TbF or TbC is destroyed.

[Darwoth]

[Dallane]

good lord it never stops and he gets shut down with every post he makes by the people who own the game.

[Reviresco]

I bet many of these poor innocent townspeople who feel bedeviled by Darworth would have no qualms about throwing their weight around against a hermit with a valuable claim.

http://i.imgur.com/KWBJlCh.jpg

[Icon]

Darwoth, I have to know....



Was my checker still there?

[TotalyMeow]

There has to be a basic time that people can feel safe. I don't mind if it's 24 hours but we're talking about people having to be on every 4 hours to check currently if they only have brick walls and don't want to lose absolutely everything when the raider takes out their bell and steals all their keys.

Salem went for years with no TbF and really no one seemed that worked up by it. You've all gotten used to the 'safety margin' now though so that's why John decided we'd leave it in. I see you agree, so why are you arguing first one way and then the opposite? As things are, there is a warning so I'm glad you've finally realized the TbF is serving its purpose as intended. Instead of just being able to waste a town any time, raiders must give a warning.

Getting rid of Donuted towns has to be a goal of yours otherwise why make townbells destructible in the fist place.

It's not a goal, really. Maybe another rework of the siege/raid mechanic later, after we finally get done all the other things we want to do and add. I'm not happy with raiding myself, but whether or not a waste claim can be surrounded by a town is not game-breaking. I've told you why town bells are destroyable. Don't make me type it for a fourth time.

If donuted towns aren't a thing anymore you can go back to having nice big towns with permanent townbells and maybe even make walls easier to take down and nerf defenses. I think we all agree that we want more raiding and combat but with less permanent destruction of towns. The permanent destruction of towns is what's making the long term players leave the game right now.

None of those things have anything to do with any of the others. Stop making **** up.

I want to see more risk like 'The Battle at Lake Nod' rather than people losing whole towns and all their characters within the town because they had to get some sleep or go to work that day.

According to you, Arcadia had a waste claim on it for weeks before it was attacked. I can't change how people react to danger, nothing we do to the mechanics can make them stop hiding behind their walls and get out there and fight. You yourself keep arguing this same point so why are you now taking the opposite stance and pretending you've been saying this all along?

When people lose everything they quit the game. That's the whole problem.

Then they should take advantage of the tools we've given them to not lose everything. We can't help it if they don't.

Darwoth slowly strangles Arcadia hoping for waste scents if they try and defend until he finally puts up a permanent TbF for weeks and then breaks in, destroys the bell, steals their keys and traps all their top guys and takes everything they've built and worked for? How is that a good game if stuff like that can happen to a big relatively active town? The game can't grow like that.

I've bolded the important things here. They had time to create or choose a character or two to fight Darwoth with. Hell, they even had time to practice combat to make ready. They even had time to run away if they just wanted to keep their characters. You say they lost all their big characters? So, why didn't they man up and sacrifice one or two to the defense of the town? Keep the town and all the other characters and just lose a couple? Assuming they did lose them. I've outlined just a couple ways they could have defended with much less chance of losing anything at all while bloodying Darwoth in the process, but they chose to not do anything. It was their choice. No mechanics changes can help that.

There shouldn't be a requirement in a game that you be available 24/7 and have to maintain a call list in case you're attacked.

There isn't. That's part of what the TbF does, it makes it so you know ahead of time. Being able to contact your town mates out of game is useful though and is often a part of a serious MMO. I don't see why Salem should be different.

We'll never see large successful towns anymore with open recruiting and such. If we want a real political system with large towns with inner-political systems

Open recruiting? Has that ever been a thing? It's certainly not something we intend. People should consider their town mates carefully. Spying and the possibility of betrayal should definitely be a thing. You seem to have very strange and persistent ideas of what we want in this game.

make it specific to the town it's meant to attack and make it so it's say 51x51 like a townbell shadow and it can't be within a certain range of another town. This way it could be out in the open or behind a Pclaimed area. Maybe you could make it so that anyone from the defending town could attack anything within the 51x51 TbF, TbC townbell sized area without leaving a waste scent. This would defeat the Donuted TbF problem or at least make it so the donuted area would have to be huge and harder to build defenses for.

Currently, you claim that you think the fact that someone can party a raider and give them permission to destroy a town without leaving waste scents is horribly game-breaking and the reason people can't have huge towns (though you did just say above that 'donut' waste claims is the reason, so maybe you changed your mind?). If one could sneak into a town and with the addition of a waste claim against it, be able to destroy the whole town without scents, how is that different? I haven't thought about it much, but I have the feeling there's actually a very dangerous pitfall in your idea I just haven't seen yet...

As for the hugely complicated town targeting system you outlined, I don't think it's really possible to code.

It's different if instead you're just harvesting summonable Waste scents like what Darwoth did at L33's village and Arcadia. The whole point of donuted towns is to make the defenders HAVE to attack the raiders so they can collect waste scents and such.

And like I said, you don't have to do that. You really can wait for the raiders to break in and screw them over then from within the relative safety of your own walls which you will quickly rebuild once the raiders are dead. Proactive defense is smart, but not needed. If someone is merely 'scent fishing' then they won't get any scents and there is no danger, just some inconvenience for awhile until they get bored and go away.

I mentioned this months ago but why can't TbF's and TbC's get exponentially more expensive? Why can't they be 500s the first day, 1000s the second and so on and on, and if the town runs out of money then the TbF or TbC is destroyed.

Because that isn't fair to raiders. Not much of Darwoth's income actually comes from taxes. He gets most of it from raiding, but not all raiders will be so successful. We can't increase the cost of raiding until only the very most experienced and successful of raiders can afford to raid. No one would ever be able to get started if we did that; it's bad practice to adjust the curve to the most accomplished.

[Thor]

Darwoth, I have to know....



Was my checker still there?

All the way from TLQ!