Capitalism vs. Socialism

[ShadowTani]

EDIT: And if you think Capitalism is any more superior you're just been indoctrinated with the America dream

I repeat again, someone who thinks Capitalism is NOT superior to Socialism even though: Capitalist countries have better health, people in them have a greater chance of becoming rich/succesful, people are much more free to do whatever the hell they want to, all of the citizens have equal rights, no other system has proven itself so succesful, people are more happy, there's fewer dictators and the market is free not planned, is in my opinion an idiot.

Are you arguing about Socialism OR Communism? Nothing you said is true, you're just spewing conservative indoctrination rhetoric and fear propaganda.

In fact, US is far behind the ideal examples of socialist countries on all these factors and is a long time since it was number one in any of them. In top socialist countries you find proper universal health care, much lower income gap, progressive civil rights (which includes gay rights etc. which US is lagging behind several years). And yeah, I can see your AWESOME freedom from you having the highest incarceration rate in the world, you subscribe to a system of modern slavery through corporate prisons; freedom my ass. And equal rights for all? Yeah, I can see that from how women is still being paid less and how minorities are treated. And if you didn't know: the nations that have repeatedly been rated as the happiest nations and having the highest standard of living are the Scandinavian countries which are all socialist. Also, these ideal examples of socialism are also all free marked economies, they don't subscribe to a communist economy where you find the planned and controlled versions.

The statistics speaks against you. However, to be fair, US is no longer a proper and pure capitalistic country, it's now considered a corporate capitalism, a transitional phase towards a corporatocracy. US as an ideal example of capitalism was doing pretty good though before you got money into politics and your politicians became corporate prostitutes. But I digress.

And you can argue I'm being an idiot as much as you want; I'm pretty confident in this subject as I where a professional economist for several years before I moved over to the estate marked. Besides you're not bringing any valuable argument that way. I'd argue the true idiot is whoever clings to one system as some drooling console fanboy, you'd might learn something if you opened up your mind some and started thinking a bit yourself. So in that regard I'd smack socialism fanboys equally hard.

As TotalyMeow pointed out, I'm not in favor of socialism, but I do recognize that the countries ahead of the curve today is free marked socialist countries. Still, I think they have reached their upper potential, and if we are to evolve society further and embrace the future problems and conflicts that are already starting to emerge we need to think about new forms of government and new forms of economics. And my way of thinking is actually more common than you probably realize within my field. Several Nobel Price winning economists are supporting things such as basic income etc. It's the jack-of-all-trade politicians that are playing economists that need to be hammered in the head until we see some change.

Anyway, if all you're going to do is argue about what xxx is bigger instead of having a proper debate about real issues with the political and economical systems then this thread has no point and value and I probably will just ignore this from now on.I'll instead leave you with this link and point to the xbox part of it.

PS. And I'm a woman for those who where confused about that.

[DarkNacht]

What standards are you even using to measure the 'most capitalist society' or are you just pulling **** out of your ass?

I'm using the standard of least political, moral and societal control over Capitalism and the Economic system. Capitalism is always controlled by a political class through taxes, war, regulation, etc... The least controls that capitalism ever had that I can think of within a political system are the beginnings of corporate dominated Nazi Germany before the massive war effort and Post-colonial/Post-monarchy anti-tax America with a capitalist system of slavery.

People like Rifmaster generally don't really understand what 'Pure Capitalism' would look like and they can't comprehend how their idea of a successful society isn't actually 'Capitalism'.

You can easily look up how most countries rate in economic freedom and find that most places with high levels of economic freedom are not back woods **** hole nations whereas most that have little are. No one has full economic freedom there are always restrictions even if its just from the tribal leader(s) or warlord(s) who controls the area.
Also there is many types of capitalism so the idea of some sort of 'pure capitalism' is absurd and the success of nearly all developed nations is due to their acceptance of some form of capitalism and many nations have seen massive declines when they attempted to reject it.
Socialism works very poorly without a capitalist system to operate in and capitalism is a much better system than the work or be shot systems that those who reject it use.

[Claeyt]

You can easily look up how most countries rate in economic freedom and find that most places with high levels of economic freedom are not back woods **** hole nations whereas most that have little are. No one has full economic freedom there are always restrictions even if its just from the tribal leader(s) or warlord(s) who controls the area.

Economic freedom does not equal Capitalism. The most successful economies in the world have the most regulatory and controlled economies. Capitalism means an economy free from regulation or controls.

Most places with high levels of economic freedom are actually usually backwood nations. In general the country or nation with the most Democratic-Socialism is the most successful economically. Most of what you'd think of as developed nations in the world today have a democractic-socialist form of government.

Yes there has never been a country run on full economic freedom, I agree.

Also there is many types of capitalism so the idea of some sort of 'pure capitalism' is absurd

The idea of 'Pure Capitalism' is absurd. So is the idea of 'Pure Socialism/Communism'. They are ideals which do not work alone. They are best when they are paired with other socio-political systems such as Democracy, Relative Moralism, Humanism, Progressivism and Scientific discovery and theory.

and the success of nearly all developed nations is due to their acceptance of some form of capitalism and many nations have seen massive declines when they attempted to reject it.

No, this is categorically false. The basics of Capitalism/Economics and Socialism/Societal Controls are both part of any successful civilization or nation. When a society/nation balances these basics of civilization alongside political systems, moral codes, law and other basic systems of civilization they succeed. When they are unable to balance them, they fail.

Socialism works very poorly without a capitalist system to operate in and capitalism is a much better system than the work or be shot systems that those who reject it use.

Socialism works very well without a strong capitalist system. Most of Western Europe and America have been moving TOWARDS Socialism and away from unfettered Capitalism for many decades now. They have extremely controlled economies with many, many successful socialist systems within them (universal medical care, government controlled monetary systems, government controlled police and military, retirement, progressive taxation, etc...)

Modern Industrial society has been slowly turning away from Capitalism over the last 150 years. They would be seen as almost communist by the standards of the 19th century but we now realize how good society can be with all this Socialism and without the more obscene aspects of unregulated Capitalism.

[Trenial]

Hi gays, I am Claeyt, and I am here to bring to Society the Right to Self Identify! I hereby self identify as a Native American Shaman, and my Right Arm self identifies as my Left One, and my Left Arm self identifies as my Right One. Oh and my Big Toe, he hates being called that, and is now known as my Little Toe, Pinky is still Pinky. I will keep lying to msyelf. Thanks.

[Dallane]

Hi gays, I am Claeyt, and I am here to bring to Society the Right to Self Identify! I hereby self identify as a Native American Shaman, and my Right Arm self identifies as my Left One, and my Left Arm self identifies as my Right One. Oh and my Big Toe, he hates being called that, and is now known as my Little Toe, Pinky is still Pinky. I will keep lying to msyelf. Thanks.

[Asmoday369]

As an Economist, the only person I agree with, on a factual level in this thread is ShadowTani.

Everyone else is wrong. Just, so wrong. The wrongness is like an onion with infinite layers and no diminishing returns to wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bINyQWt4Db4

And now, I feel...molested....for even having read it.

I'm going to go shower and try to get in 8 hours with my teddy bear.

[reeper_aut]

China is doing alright and owns stock in the US.

I know! They are doing alright because they invested in Capitalism in the US, and opened up all their major cities to Capitalism! You're really spot on to point out how the main reason a communist country is succeeding is by adhering to Capitalism.

so you say, that china is only doing well, because they get returns on investments in capitalist states?
uhm, but capital flows show it the other way around! china is the biggest creditor to the "oh so superior" usa!!

btw. where did they have the money to invest in the first place??

AFAIK Russia is heading slowly, but steadily in that direction.
Like you can't be connected to the internet without confirming your identity first.

good that nsa can't track you down .....

EDIT: religion is als a form of restriction to free enterprise. be it christian, jewish or muslim.

[Inotdead]

good that nsa can't track you down .....

Well it's a little different. Here in Germany I can buy a sim card, enter a fake name on the site to activate it, use it for a while and then throw away.
In Russia you have to provide an ID to buy a sim card which is then registered. And if you want to use a wifi in the public place you have to enter a verification code that is sent via sms to your phone.

[reeper_aut]

so, basically in russia you know that you have surveillance on you.
while in germany/europe and US you are spied upon without knowledge. so if no "leak" happens you can pretend to be "free"

which one is the better?

[Procne]

so, basically in russia you know that you have surveillance on you.
while in germany/europe and US you are spied upon without knowledge. so if no "leak" happens you can pretend to be "free"

which one is the better?

Dunno, but when I look at the quality of life in Russia / post soviet countries and compare it to western countries then I'm happy I don't live in Russia.

edit: as my country has been liberated from russian regime 25 years ago I can safely say that there is a lot less surveillance now.