Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

[Tonkyhonk]

To give us the impression that they want this community game to be community driven when in fact the community have no involvement in this sandbox game, and its full development + involvement is the devs decision alone ? Well some will say "They listen to us", yea the "fellowship" they listen to, and only them.

then why did jorb even post on I&I threads?
this game itself is community driven. but the game development isnt. devs are the rightful dictators in their development.
they have to be convinced not by numbers but by content. they have their own aesthetics that many do not understand. its not the "fellowship" that they decide to listen to, but deep understanding and/or maybe a real outstanding insight that they had never thought of before or something, i think. (and mind you, your insight may not be their insight.)
just take it that almost everything has been already suggested before in different forms and devs have put their thoughts in it if it is something you can easily come up with. theyve been doing this on the basically same game for 4 yrs straight.
(and dont misunderstand, i dont think i fully understand either, and my suggestion was considered only once and then it was soon reversed by others' suggestion like the next day. =p)

funny fact is that i once heard loftar talking about a few yrs old suggestion made by a player (in haven) to be used somehow.
its not that "suggest today, get it implemented tomorrow" thing.

Can i see anyone here actually doing / running that ? I do not think so

In haven w3, a faction succeeded doing it till the end of the world and i enjoyed the benefits of living in their SG.
so, it is possible.
but again, we just need more game contents either way and devs probably have a huge list of what to implement without looking at any I&I threads.

[tafkas]

I've read all the developer claims that HhH and Salem emulate/simulate real life environment. But their logic is flawed. Or at least their claim is overstreched. Albeit i do agree that PVP and perma-death should never be removed from the game, exactly for the reason jorb states. But...

But there can be no autonomous, self-rulling gameplay, if there's potentially infinte power for the top end and almost nothing at the middle/bottom. Basically Salem is setup so a handful can rule. If they want to be benevolent or vicious, it's up to them. It's a game of elites. Which is fine, if advertised as such. Which is fine if devs and Paradox are happy with a very small niche. But it's a pity.

I've seen Salem as a survival game, but it's not. It's a domination game. I come from a former communist country, where we had a handful of people dictate to us what we should should for half a century. I find absolutely no fun in a game based on the concept of "rule or be ruled". I agree, it's my fault, not Salem's. But as I said, I find it a pity that devs are so bent on doing things hardcore. With just a bit of consideration on the balance of powers between the top end (over 100 humors) and middle (50 humours or so), Salem could be enjoyed by everyone willing to invest a decent amount of time in it.

That being said, I'll keep an eye on the game, log in now and then a harvest my crops, but I can't help feel sad about another great idea being lost in the MMO scene simply because devs think they know everything better than anyone else. If you show disdain toward your customers, you can only make a fool of yourself. But it's their game, their life, their call.

[darnokpl]

it will still require in-game monitors/moderator(s) to watch cause players cannot "solve" troubles happening in there

Just like it does now, when some people wants to build claims around boston?
I said it once and I will repeat: if people wants to break it they will break it!
Only Devs or in-game-mods like MagicMan suggested can solve this problem even in pvp-server.

but as far as i read, it sounds like you and darn are asking for a server for griefers' heaven

First if you want to blame or vilify me more at least do that as response for my last post to you.

Griefers heaven we have now.
@_Gunnar said about more content brings more balance and I can agree with that.
I just suggested fastest option, coz we all know that new content will be here, but it needs some time.

pointing out his inconsistency.

Like I said before: you still focused on only one thing I did wrong in this game.

I watched your stream today... well I can hear from your voice you are not bad and hostile person and I admit it was wrong what I did and sorry for that.

his trying to gather new players under him once its open would result in the same event and apparently he didnt learn that. he is still blaming the oin's noobiness only, not his own noob strategy of problem solving.

You forgot that Oin wasn't under me. And again you based accusation only on your own assumption about me.

what darn says has the same thing.
he is blaming the perma-death or raiding part of the game for the current population, but never blames what he has done.

Ok, I am guilty of decreasing server population by 2.
Yet you now trying to blame me for population dropping from 300 to 40 that is not fair.
Look at other posts in HoB or in Paradox forum and blame people who destroyed towns and murdered more than 2 people.

if he believes "murdering" new players is driving them away, why did he even do that and why still says he was never wrong about his decision? he doesnt even admit how his strategy backfired when shown to the public.

What?

I watched your stream today... well I can hear from your voice you are not bad and hostile person and I admit it was wrong what I did and sorry for that.

yes, i know he killed a thief, and the leader, because he thought the leader was building up a thief's guild or something.
his solution was "murder", not only the thief, but also the leader. and he says his "solution" is righteous enough.

If towns leaders are not responsible for people they bring to town then who is?

now, look back at his suggestion.
he is suggesting a server where you can steal but no vandalizing and no murder and it is supposed to be balanced.
do you see how these are conflicting? compare what he has been saying and what he has done?

I also suggested different solution like safe zone near boston and huge newbie town and now I just have one more idea...
Huge newbie town managed by advanced players yet protected by "Devs Law"

if murdering the leader who did not commit a crime was avoidable to solve the situation, why did he choose to murder, not just KO, and still claims he had done the right thing?

You said few posts before that KO doesn't stops criminals and then I believed he was criminal too!
When you do get that one simple thing into your brain?

why didnt he just revoke his claim and make it impossible for him to come back like he is suggesting on this "training" server?
why is he even suggesting something he would not do himself but for others?

BECAUSE IT IS PVP-SERVER AND WHEN HE COME BACK HE CAN KILL ME AND EVERY NEWBIE THAT WAS IN MY TOWN,
logical or should I use size tag like you did so it will be more true statement for you?

for example, he thinks you could always break the thief's leanto without Waste. but not considering the silver cost of revoking, not considering when the thief has his claim already covered by his town.

What? Read whole my posts not only first sentence...

If thief is member of your town you can (on non-pvp option) declaim his personal claim, claim his plot/area,
destroy leanto and summon kill him if you got larceny scents!

If you don't have scents you can KO him on your claim and send to boston (after destroying his leanto)
it will take while for him, to come back and talking **** under your walls coz he couldn't do anything else!

here is my point.
we, the community, could think twice before acting, IF "Waste" or "C&A" were driving away new players.
but im afraid that the problem is within the community and not those skills alone.
when we all do not understand that, then we will only repeat the same thing.

You forgot to add:
Tonky 2012 for mod or miss Salem

and darn will most likely repeat the same thing.

I love people who know better what I will do than I do

[_Gunnar]

I've read all the developer claims that HhH and Salem emulate/simulate real life environment. But their logic is flawed. Or at least their claim is overstreched. Albeit i do agree that PVP and perma-death should never be removed from the game, exactly for the reason jorb states. But...

But there can be no autonomous, self-rulling gameplay, if there's potentially infinte power for the top end and almost nothing at the middle/bottom. Basically Salem is setup so a handful can rule. If they want to be benevolent or vicious, it's up to them. It's a game of elites. Which is fine, if advertised as such. Which is fine if devs and Paradox are happy with a very small niche. But it's a pity.

I've seen Salem as a survival game, but it's not. It's a domination game. I come from a former communist country, where we had a handful of people dictate to us what we should should for half a century. I find absolutely no fun in a game based on the concept of "rule or be ruled". I agree, it's my fault, not Salem's. But as I said, I find it a pity that devs are so bent on doing things hardcore. With just a bit of consideration on the balance of powers between the top end (over 100 humors) and middle (50 humours or so), Salem could be enjoyed by everyone willing to invest a decent amount of time in it.

That being said, I'll keep an eye on the game, log in now and then a harvest my crops, but I can't help feel sad about another great idea being lost in the MMO scene simply because devs think they know everything better than anyone else. If you show disdain toward your customers, you can only make a fool of yourself. But it's their game, their life, their call.

Salem is certainly not really a survival game, imo. They removed the possibility of pve death (apart from in darkness probably).

I wouldn't say that the game is based on the concept "rule or be ruled" though. If someone tries to impose their will on you, you are free to resist! And the combat system is set up with diminishing returns, so that two people making two 50 humour characters is both easier and more effective than one person making one 100 humour characters*. If someone is trying to rule you, you are free in the game to rebel, and the more people you have effectively organized on your side the more effective that rebellion will be, as it should be. I feel that this is the whole point of the game; you are free to attempt to impose your will on both the environment and other players in any way you wish within the confines of the games "Natural Law" (game mechanics). The main theme of the game in my view is that cooperation will make any group more competitive, and there is a balance between cooperation and conflict which is really exciting.

As to casual players, I think if a single casual player expects to be competitive with a single hardcore player, they should just adjust their expectations. Changing this would have a side effect of destroying what makes the game special. Besides, salem is still fun without having the highest humours in the game. There is plenty of stuff to do for people who play casually - trade with the hardcore is still possible, and you can have fun building up a character, making friends/enemies with neighbours, writing for the Courant...

*actually i have certain qualms about the purity multiplier system & farming which i need to think about more, but this is almost certainly the intention. Besides atm those who started farming after the dross fix are at a disadvantage, but that will be removed eventually I'm sure. There are also ofc breakpoints like the point at which you can smash a wall, but this is fine - a cooperative group of players shouldn't find it too hard to make a "basher".

[MagicManICT]

I think I understand now... it's taken me months, but I think I finally realize the answer to this! Darnokpl is really a griefer, but doesn't want to be summon killed so he wants the system changed.

On the serious side, I do see both sides of this argument. I've had long discussions on it with others in the past and it's a really hard thing to balance. I think the pure crafting aspect of A Tale in the Desert works because of two reasons: rate of progress and some of the things you build are very creative or aren't limited in size. Compare it to a system like EVE where the core game was originally almost nothing but PvP. The concept was to create a virtual universe where the players had to do everything themselves: resource gathering, production lines, as well as wage war to protect the previous two (and pull a few shenanigans along the way). EVE works because players are constantly blowing each other up and so there's always something for people to produce.

Herein lies the problem with a non-PvP version of Salem: You have fixed content. The content really only has one purpose, and that is to fuel the PvP aspects of the game while at the same time providing some sense of a "virtual life" with a farm, mine, etc. Anything creative the players make always ends up in base design/layout and carved into the landscape. Look at the numbers for EVE (and other PvP sandbox games) and compare it to non-combat crafting games. The latter is failing with the former is succeeding.

Is there room for a "learning area" in Salem? Sure. I think it would be great for the game. The problem is how do you design it for minimal GM intervention while at the same time providing the appropriate lessons in learning how to play? Will it actually create player retention or just give players one expectation and then they quit when they have to face the full world of PvP? How many people would stay in this "newbie" zone to avoid this and limit their gameplay just to remain protected?

I know these stats are old for EVE, but at the time I was last able to play (about 2-3 years ago), there were many pilots (close to 50%) that had never even stepped foot out of secure space (.5 or higher). The supposed risk is too high for them (and for that person, there could be a well reasoned decision to that, such as time constraints of resupplying ships and such if they were blown up). I think that shows that there is a large market for this sort of thing and you'd attract a lot of players with it. However, let me point out that it to CCP years to develop EVE to that point and that for the first year (two?) there was very little PvE content in highsec to keep people there, and it was all "poor" quality work.

Can you imagine the "lulz" that could be had with leantos/claimed walls that could not be destroyed, if the chief made some alts on this server?

Of course if someone want to break it he will break it, I am aware of that.

Let's say you're Paradox here. What are you going to do to solve this problem if the game is barely breaking even? You don't have the resources to add more GMs to the budget and the ones you have are already pushed beyond even a frenzied work capacity so much that players are already receiving poor customer service? Let's not bother considering the dev time it would add on to develop this. It's not going to happen before launch and I doubt it will happen in the first year if Paradox says "do it or we kill the game". (In that case, I could see Seatribe saying "We love you Salem, but we won't do that to you. It's time to die." )

I will say I, at least, love your idealism, and I can probably speak for many here (but I'll try not to). However, just like anyone else, idealism needs to be tempered with reality. If you want to fight for your pet ideas, try to give better grounded reasons and how they're actually going to help the subject of player retention. (Player retention in a beta can be pretty indicative. The Fallen Earth beta comes to mind for me, but the game is still up and running even with a small population.)

This whole line of thought on non-PvP/permadeath is old and we've been reading it for seven months. I hate to step in as a moderator here on this conversation, so I'll put it from a personal perspective and say give us something new to discuss on the matter or drop it, please. (At least it's not popping up in every other thread like it did early on. Thank you all for that!)

I've read all the developer claims that HhH and Salem emulate/simulate real life environment. But their logic is flawed. Or at least their claim is overstreched. Albeit i do agree that PVP and perma-death should never be removed from the game, exactly for the reason jorb states

I don't know how it doesn't. Without nations and laws, this is exactly what we'd revert to, except dead people stay dead and the dumb ones were usually dead before they could produce offspring.

[_Gunnar]

I've read all the developer claims that HhH and Salem emulate/simulate real life environment. But their logic is flawed. Or at least their claim is overstreched. Albeit i do agree that PVP and perma-death should never be removed from the game, exactly for the reason jorb states

I don't know how it doesn't. Without nations and laws, this is exactly what we'd revert to, except dead people stay dead and the dumb ones were usually dead before they could produce offspring.

Well, without nations and laws, people should/would create them

If they don't in game, then we need more content/players/balance. I think it is a pretty good simulation in many ways though, and even tried trolling jorb at one point by asking him why his libertarian utopia was not realised in haven. His response was "hearthvaults".

[darnokpl]

I think I understand now... it's taken me months, but I think I finally realize the answer to this! Darnokpl is really a griefer, but doesn't want to be summon killed so he wants the system changed.

EVE works because players are constantly blowing each other up and so there's always something for people to produce.

Yes you are right, but in every comparison with Eve there is one problem.

When you lost fight:
- in eve you lost ship (and/or maybe clone),
- in Salem you lost your character,

and that is ok they are even at this point, coz ship=char (when you got production lane),
but going further...
- in eve you can't lost your account balance or your production lane,
- in salem you can lost everything (town and your production infrastructure),

Battles between town with equal production of murder alts are great in Salem, it is fun and it will keep people busy and in game...
but in most cases people are trying to kill and destroy camps or towns that are much weaker than their own,
to simply do not risk too much and still have fun from fights.

And here is problem of perma death and world domination in Salem, because in eve you can simply run into secured sector and keep playing,
but here it is impossible to once destroyed faction to stand up and be competitive again in same world :/

So idea of new world every 3 months I read about in this thread is awesome imho.

Is there room for a "learning area" in Salem? Sure. I think it would be great for the game. The problem is how do you design it for minimal GM intervention while at the same time providing the appropriate lessons in learning how to play? Will it actually create player retention or just give players one expectation and then they quit when they have to face the full world of PvP? How many people would stay in this "newbie" zone to avoid this and limit their gameplay just to remain protected?

Well if we can get few people that leads large factions to have agreement to create one neutral town with massive amount of newbies
that will be managed by neutral players from many time zones.
I think the "learning area" in Salem may grow thx to that.

Of course newbies will be free to choose to stay or leave town or even join any large faction of they want to.
All actions like recruitment, informations about griefers, town development etc etc
should be transparent and showed in some thread on forum to stay away from suspicious, spies and other bad things from large factions.
Of course large factions leaders ideas how to manage large numbers of new players would be very useful in that thread.

[Procne]

I will repeat myself here, but of well...

I understand devs want to create hardcore PvP game and many (probably most) people enjoy this PvP, permadeath and drama / jerk attitude associated with it.
And I don't want to remove that (well, maybe except jerk attitude).

However, when creating this PvP game devs created one of the best economy / crafting system to which no other game can compare. This is quite ironic. I would love to have a chance to play this game, on some other server for example, without the fear of getting killed / raided, being the "carebear" or "farmville" player that I am.

The argument that no black skills would create griefer's paradise is crazy to me. How often those skills help griefed and how often they help griefers? There were some ideas of what griefers can do if black skills were removed.

Like encircling claim with 4 other claims and placing wall around it? It costs silver, it costs time. The more the bigger claim they are trying to grief. What do they get in return? Nothing except the "pleasure" they made someone's life harder. If the claim was big - I doubt anyone would bother, except in case of sama drama / big argument. If the claim was small - griefed player doesn't lose much anyway. Compare it to current situation - breaking into claim and destroying everything in it is both cheaper and faster. Plus you can get some good loot. Bad thing is you can be tracked. Which situation would be more common?

And the argument that everything can be used to griefing... With all the respect I may have for devs for creating this game, I completely cannot accept this strange implication "everything can be used in offensive way -> there is no meaningful distinction between offensive and passive". It feels like this "the air is free" game Jorb was talking about, where he, and other people, wave their hands in front of my face by trying to convince me that their actions are both offensive and peaceful and there is no distinction so that I should not be annoyed. Agreeing with Jorb on that implication would be accepting this hand waving. I understand that intentions are not always clear, and it's impossible to always make distinction between offensive and peaceful, but that doesn't mean there is no difference between those. I know what relativism and moral relativism is and it's neither of those. It's moral nihilism. If that's what Jorb wants then fine, it's their game. But please stop quoting his essay.

There will always be people who will grief and you can never make 100% protection from those. But saying that black skills are the only thing keeping them at bay is similar to giving kids machine guns and expecting them to stop bullying each other thanks to those. It's quite obvious to me that if griefing required more effort, and gave less in return, it would be much rarer, even if safer. Many games have mechanics that give people some protection, and while griefing is still very possible - it's rare due to the effort and no rewards.

As for the fixed content... Why would it only affect non-pvp worlds? PvP world grows and advances as well. Especially major faction(s), which cap purity and humours. It's not like everyone there is bound to lose everything at some point.Then they can decimate all opposition, and then what? What new content will PvP provide for them? New newbies to destroy? Sure, wars will make capping slower, but looking at the market currently - how long till 100% purity seeds are easily available for trade? Same with high purity metal etc.?

The fact that game in non-pvp world would become boring is obviously true. But in the case of non-pvp oriented players, it's the same in pvp world. Except that they may end their game faster if they get raided before they get bored. So I don't think there is anything to lose here for peaceful players. I would expect however, that PvP players have something to lose - easy targets who can't defend and are easy source of food / metal / inspirationals. What will those raiders do once they no longer have carebears to kill and rob and would have to fight with people who actually can fight back? As sarcastic as it may sound, this is one of the arguments that I would really accept - hardcore PvP world would be more boring for PvP players if there were no easy targets for them.

On the sidenote, with the essay of his I see Jorb as the master troll of this forum and HnH's, where he managed to convince (not through his personal example) people that being total douchebag is morally not any different from being just a normal person. And the sole purpose of these games is to throw players, like rats, into a barrel and watch them eat each other.

[L33LEE]

Is there room for a "learning area" in Salem? Sure. I think it would be great for the game. The problem is how do you design it for minimal GM intervention while at the same time providing the appropriate lessons in learning how to play? Will it actually create player retention or just give players one expectation and then they quit when they have to face the full world of PvP? How many people would stay in this "newbie" zone to avoid this and limit their gameplay just to remain protected?

A better introduction into the game, maybe a newb island were they must complete ABC tasks, this Learning should take no longer than 1-2 hours, and quitting / leaving the game during the newb phase instantly deports you to the world map. This newb island should also give the player at least a 50/50/50/50 humour character during the newb phase to test stuff more effectivly and explain abit more about the game indepth, 50% of your time spent on newb island should be reading the concept of the game and how machanics work, not needing to work at least the basics out for yourself. There should also be a minor pvp fighting session as the last thing you do on newb island before you are put on the world map, If you are KO'd in that pvp test fight, it explains how in thus state, you can be "murdered or perma killed", and if during the fight you KO the other person, it allows you to deal the killing blow, then explain what has basically happened.

This kind of introduction which is missing, is what is killing the game, because people are killed / bored before they even understand the basics of the game.

Might as well put a big banner / warning before you play saying "Its advised you research this game on the fan wiki, forums guides to understand how things work, because once your ingame, you vend for yourself".

The island would explain how to:
Build farms
Plant seeds
Harvest
Produce food
Use food for glottney level
harvest raw materials / produce iron
how leveling land works to build structures (because most newbs do not have modded clients or even know they exist, if you support modded clients, you can add a link into this part on how leveling land can he hellped with a modded clients tools, or simply add a grid yourself + radar)
EDIT: And level some prof's and a brief explanation of the prof system.

At the end of newb island, you are teleported to boston and set the same as any basic new character, with maybe a little gift for fully completing the introduction like a wooden axe, wooden shovel or something.

Everything exists in the game already, crime will be disabled in this area, but it will explain how crime works with an area you cannot tress pass on, and how the crime debuff works. It would only be a matter of creating / generating thus land, making a few extra bits and spawning / generating items for that character at a specific part of the introduction to the game. (You could create the land east off boston, etc and make it easy non accessable by making huge cliffs 10+ tiles high which no one can climb, with the dev tools ingame i could make such land + all building, areas, training parts for thus island in <1 day, then only a matter of giving player the option to skip / play the newb island (Strongly suggested for new players), and teleport them to that island first before they do anything, then basically after its finished, teleport them to the character creation area etc etc, really should not take "THAT MUCH CODING")

Its not really the players or community which is killing the game, but the lack of introduction to the game and the concept of Salem to a new player audiance, as everyone said, this is a very neich game and a better introduction to this should solve alot of the concerns about new players joining.

With this type of introduction, people will know what they are in for, and if they like what they see, they will stay.

Without this introduction, the same people "might/do" leave before they even understand anything, because this game strongly lacks a good introduction into the world which is salem. They start, walk around, get killed, get bored. (These are the people who join without doing any serious indepth research about the game)

Yes you want this game to be hard, but it is still "A GAME", and helping new players understand your concept of the game should be one of your most important things "IF THEY WANT IT TO GROW BIG"

[MagicManICT]

@darnokpl: Agree with the permadeath being a big factor in the differences between EVE and Salem. However, what do you have to replace that titan that just got toasted? It has no insurance policies and odds are there probably isn't going to be any salvage left for you to come collect after the battle (someone else made off with it if it the container didn't get blown up). There's 100 billion ISK gone in nothing flat (think there's about a 20-30 billion isk insurance payout because all ships at least get that... been too long and I can't remember). I think the biggest alliances can pump a few of these things out a month, so we're still talking a week or two of work at a minimum lost. An average alliance that can afford to field one might be lucky to do one a month. This is about the same time it takes to get a PvP alt back up and running to top tier stats by all accounts. A basic PvP murder alt takes about a week or two, at most, of feeding at the most to prepare, and I'm sure it can be done in a few days if enough resources are around.

The reality is permadeath is just a really big death penalty, not really complete loss. For complete loss, it'll take someone coming along and leveling your settlement or town (or at least stealing it so you can't use it after inheritence). I think when that lesson soaks into most people's minds, it doesn't become as big a tragedy.