A noob is going to quit when.....

[死]

Always been calm. I don't see what you're talking about. I'm sure you find that hypocritical post funny as well.

Now to get off this derail. Why not instead of asking for "noob-basics" to be developer made instead ask for more community involvement? It works for H&H and you see few to no problems. At the end of the day the community will have more time to put towards good information; such as that private wiki. I'm sure the new, nicer, developers will be happier if people actually do that job instead of ask them to do it.

Despite the damn fact that the town has NPCs spam "Go to the forum!" does not mean they will. Maybe having a quick-link in the default client out in the open labeled a question-mark should instead send them to a thread in the help forum. If they can't get by that then I don't see why time should be wasted on them; as a majority of this game you learn by doing instead of reading.

[Procne]

It works for H&H and you see few to no problems.

How do you know that? It may work for you, but I think many people skipped HnH completely because the game failed to present itself properly and inform the new players about possibilities and basic mechanics. As a result, many people may have decided it's not worth the effort to investigate further. But yeah, you can then say they are weak and not worthy to play the game, and that it's better they left, which fixes the problem in your opinion. And if they come to forum you can always flame them.

At the end of the day the community will have more time to put towards good information; such as that private wiki. I'm sure the new, nicer, developers will be happier if people actually do that job instead of ask them to do it.

First you complain about people not investing their curiosity and then you present wiki (and probably player guides too) as a solution. Wikis and guides completely kill the curiosity and discovery because using them is like following a set of instructions prepared by someone else.

[Kush]

How do you know that? It may work for you, but I think many people skipped HnH completely because the game failed to present itself properly and inform the new players about possibilities and basic mechanics. As a result, many people may have decided it's not worth the effort to investigate further.

Me for example. My stint in haven lasted about 3 days. All I accomplished was I picked an apple from a tree. Said screw this and left. That bothered me a bit about Salem early on, and I almost quit, but right after I started playing I broke a thumb and couldn't play a console for a while, so I had the time to learn the basics. By the time it healed I had too much legacy humus to quit

[TotalyMeow]

the town has NPCs spam "Go to the forum!" does not mean they will. Maybe having a quick-link in the default client out in the open labeled a question-mark should instead send them to a thread in the help forum.

It's been mentioned, but I suppose it bears repeating, we haven't done anything with the default client since acquiring the game. We've been saving it for the tutorial month which, as it happens, is this month. The town NPC was actually requested by players who thought there should be something helping warn new players that the game is more difficult and dangerous than they might realize at first and that the mechanics are changing quickly.

[pistolshrimp]

It works for H&H and you see few to no problems.

How do you know that? It may work for you, but I think many people skipped HnH completely because the game failed to present itself properly and inform the new players about possibilities and basic mechanics. As a result, many people may have decided it's not worth the effort to investigate further. But yeah, you can then say they are weak and not worthy to play the game, and that it's better they left, which fixes the problem in your opinion. And if they come to forum you can always flame them.

I lasted maybe a day and a half on H&H. I had no idea what I was doing and I was coming from Salem, or rather no idea why I wanted to do what I was doing. I think that's the important part of information, its not just the how, but the why.

[死]

How do you know that? It may work for you, but I think many people skipped HnH completely because the game failed to present itself properly and inform the new players about possibilities and basic mechanics. As a result, many people may have decided it's not worth the effort to investigate further. But yeah, you can then say they are weak and not worthy to play the game, and that it's better they left, which fixes the problem in your opinion. And if they come to forum you can always flame them.

You're taking what I said out of context. I am not saying to flame them or that they are not "worthy"; where you got that from is questionable. What I said was to treat them the same as they are in H&H: Almost always directed to a guide for their basic questions and anger. If they can not even read a wiki, basically a help sheet with the values to help their curiosity, or a guide, a cheat-sheet on how **** works for those who lack curiosity, then they can be called weak and lazy. You are unknowingly supporting lazy folk who would not even read a few lines to answer their question and instead make a new topic only to be redirected to said area.

I support community investment and individual curiosity. You are either going to try and do something without help at first to see if you can quickly grasp it or you will try it and then use the wiki, or a guide, to explain what you did not understand. I don't grasp onto things quickly and will try it out before I understand it, let alone use a guide or wiki to help me at first; but I will use such when I've exhausted my resources instead of give up and quit. How many times has it been stated that this game is not some farm simulator? Countless. It is meant to have a a massive knowledge-curve in the first place. That is a nice trait that Salem kept from the developers of H&H.

Everyone who stayed in this game accepted the fact they have to learn via their own ability at first and then with community input. The same with H&H. I don't apply weak and strong, as I'll never even mention strong, in these regards. Weak is when you are to lazy to even try and learn what this game has to offer. I could care less if it makes them worthy or not as there is no such concept. You either stay because you enjoy the game or you don't. The few people who enjoy the ability to loose everything you make and die permanently will stay as they enjoy it. Fun fact: Not many gamers enjoy this concept. My proof? All of H&H's existence and continued slow growth to the group of games, all of us, who seem to enjoy having a game bite us in the ass constantly. Most folk don't like their game-world being able to wreck their months of work. Us few do.

First you complain about people not investing their curiosity and then you present wiki (and probably player guides too) as a solution. Wikis and guides completely kill the curiosity and discovery because using them is like following a set of instructions prepared by someone else.

Again you took what I said out of context. Here is an analogy that applies quite well to most of this game. Learning a new math equation. You learn the basic properties and then try it. You then use the answer guide to see if you got it; if not you write the answer down and rinse and repeat until you understand the problems after doing a few more. The same is applied here. You have to be curious and be able to read what is presented in front of you, such as simply pressing a button, to actually do anything. When you fail a few times and then browse the forum you will understand what you ***** up on and rinse and repeat. Eventually you have it down as if second nature.

I am not complaining but simply stating the fact of the situation. The only difference here is that the Salem new-players are less likely to come to the forum, make a post of how **** the game is, and then storm off. Noobs will always quite; few will make a post about it. Even fewer will visit the forum despite it being spammed in game now.

I lasted maybe a day and a half on H&H. I had no idea what I was doing and I was coming from Salem, or rather no idea why I wanted to do what I was doing. I think that's the important part of information, its not just the how, but the why.

Salem is the same way; there is no purpose. Maybe if you add in the forum game there could be purpose but overall there is no purpose. As I remember vaguely Jorbtar made H&H to be able to mimic the nature of humanity and politics in general. Salem is really no different; just add in which-craft, guns, and a cash shop for mostly the same **** in game. The purpose of the game is what we as players make it to be.

[Procne]

You're taking what I said out of context. I am not saying to flame them or that they are not "worthy"; where you got that from is questionable.

Context of the discussion was how to provide meaningful introduction to the game for new players. Then you storm in and start with "I'm sorry but really? People can't live without having the mechanics force fed down their poor little throats? What ever happened to actually investing your curiosity into how **** works" (btw, this last sentence clearly looks like complaining to me). This, and the rest of your post suggest you have no respect, or even are aggressive towards people who don't take time to experiment with everything and figure stuff on their own.

What I said was to treat them the same as they are in H&H: Almost always directed to a guide for their basic questions and anger. If they can not even read a wiki, basically a help sheet with the values to help their curiosity, or a guide, a cheat-sheet on how **** works for those who lack curiosity, then they can be called weak and lazy. You are unknowingly supporting lazy folk who would not even read a few lines to answer their question and instead make a new topic only to be redirected to said area.

I support community investment and individual curiosity. You are either going to try and do something without help at first to see if you can quickly grasp it or you will try it and then use the wiki, or a guide, to explain what you did not understand. I don't grasp onto things quickly and will try it out before I understand it, let alone use a guide or wiki to help me at first; but I will use such when I've exhausted my resources instead of give up and quit. How many times has it been stated that this game is not some farm simulator? Countless. It is meant to have a a massive knowledge-curve in the first place. That is a nice trait that Salem kept from the developers of H&H.

Everyone who stayed in this game accepted the fact they have to learn via their own ability at first and then with community input. The same with H&H. I don't apply weak and strong, as I'll never even mention strong, in these regards. Weak is when you are to lazy to even try and learn what this game has to offer. I could care less if it makes them worthy or not as there is no such concept. You either stay because you enjoy the game or you don't. The few people who enjoy the ability to loose everything you make and die permanently will stay as they enjoy it. Fun fact: Not many gamers enjoy this concept. My proof? All of H&H's existence and continued slow growth to the group of games, all of us, who seem to enjoy having a game bite us in the ass constantly. Most folk don't like their game-world being able to wreck their months of work. Us few do.

You still forget about one thing. New player enters the game he knows nothing about. He is now deciding if he wants to stay. He wants to see what he can do and if it's fun. HnH does nothing to present that. Now you expect the player to do the homework by researching the game on forum and wiki. And I ask - why should player bother to do that if the dev did not bother to present and explain the game better? I try checking up other games from time to time. There are many many many games. I don't have time to read wikis for every single one of them. I jump in, do a tutorial and play a little to see what it is. If it doesn't interest me then I leave. And I'm sure many people do that as well.

It's even stronger nowadays because huge majority in games clearly states a goal and then tells player how to reach it. Even if HnH or Salem don't have a goal they still should inform the player what he can achieve. Like "you can build a town, you can farm, you can hunt, you can mine, you can steal and kill other players, you may lose everything if someone kills you".

Again you took what I said out of context. Here is an analogy that applies quite well to most of this game. Learning a new math equation. You learn the basic properties and then try it. You then use the answer guide to see if you got it; if not you write the answer down and rinse and repeat until you understand the problems after doing a few more. The same is applied here. You have to be curious and be able to read what is presented in front of you, such as simply pressing a button, to actually do anything. When you fail a few times and then browse the forum you will understand what you ***** up on and rinse and repeat. Eventually you have it down as if second nature.

And here is where the analogy fails - I play games for pleasure. I learn maths because I have or need to. Sure, you may say that you read wiki and experiment in the game beacuse you need it to be good in the game. But a new player is not interested in it. He doesn't know the game yet, he doesn't know if he wants to keep playing it so he has no need to be good in it. It's like a person found new maths equation on the internet and then you expected them to learn and study the equation. But why?

I am not complaining but simply stating the fact of the situation. The only difference here is that the Salem new-players are less likely to come to the forum, make a post of how **** the game is, and then storm off. Noobs will always quite; few will make a post about it. Even fewer will visit the forum despite it being spammed in game now.

Again, how do you know that? I see nothing that would make people less likely to visit forum in Salem than in HnH.

I lasted maybe a day and a half on H&H. I had no idea what I was doing and I was coming from Salem, or rather no idea why I wanted to do what I was doing. I think that's the important part of information, its not just the how, but the why.

Salem is the same way; there is no purpose. Maybe if you add in the forum game there could be purpose but overall there is no purpose. As I remember vaguely Jorbtar made H&H to be able to mimic the nature of humanity and politics in general. Salem is really no different; just add in which-craft, guns, and a cash shop for mostly the same **** in game. The purpose of the game is what we as players make it to be.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure that by "why" pistolshrimp meant more short-term goals, like "what should I gather those mushrooms for?", "what should I learn those skills for?", "what possibilities do I have in this game?", "What are those stats for?".

[pistolshrimp]

#REKT

[死]

The why has already been explained. I'm not here to give you a philosophical answer to why you should do **** in the first place: That is your problem. Figure it out on your own without another's assistance. You play for enjoyment, then stick with that. I play for humor, I stick with that. New players will lay for whatever reason they wish. What they play for is not our business and their business alone.

Try not to take everything at face-value on the internet. It does not help anyone. Though nice try on trying to expand upon your own lack of understanding. Best wishes in dealing with such.

[Yes]

If this is how focus group discussion go then I think I get why some people say that focus group are completely useless.

It's like a person found new maths equation on the internet and then you expected them to learn and study the equation. But why?

Yep. And so some people who are close to the guy who posted the math formula ask him stuff and learn more and more about its applications. Some people who stumble upon it won't know the guy who posted it and will slowly start to know more stuff (mostly the on the surface stuff, because they have not much insight of how this formula was created). Now the ones that are very proficient will ridicule the attempts and slow progress of the least efficient and proficient ones (being like this isn't a bad thing). This is completely understandable when people behave like that (bullying) when they are not educated (like army and kids from stupid parents), but it's very sad when people who seem educated at least academically do bullying.
Am I the only one who thinks that my posts are useless?