Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

[ramuller]

I understand that Permadeath is one of the foundation features of the game; however, I think it conflicts with the nature of the crafting game. It would make much more sense in a game where everything the player does is geared towards PvP but many players are attacted to H&H and will be attracted to Salem because they are rich crafting games (I admit one could say that all crafting could be considered ways to gain an edge in PvP, but not everyone looks at it that way). Prehaps Permadeath could be part of the cost of deciding to create a PvP character (some skill such as The Story of Cain & Abel could activate it on the character) and death before that could be something that requires 5 - 10 hours to recover from.

[Slayblaze]

How about we lose 10-25% of our proficiencys when we die. Much like it is with npcs which is great, but much more firm. That way if someone gets killed numerous times its like permadeath. Also have all skills gated and taken away if you lose the prereqs. This alone would be plenty harsh enough, and still allow for the random 1 v 1 pvp. The way its going now, is in my opinon, hurting your sub numbers and your gameplay. I think the only real form of permadeath should be when you drag a koed witch to a church and burn her at the stake. Or she sacrifices your koed body in a cauldron, giving her a bad ass witch craft curio.

Very well said, and I totally agree. Hopefully some of the ideas here will get some attention.

[MagicManICT]

Could you provide a listing of ways in which permadeath conflicts with the crafting system? Odds are (and I hate to use a crappy one-liner) you're probably doing something wrong.

So I don't have to feel bad about that crappy one-liner, let me elucidate a bit. I don't know how many people here play card games. I was a big Magic player back in the day and now play a lot of poker. While poker hasn't changed a lot over the years, the "favorite game" has always changed every decade or so (and current strategies are constantly evolving). In Magic, the game changes majorly with every new expansion.

In Magic, I can't expect to take my "A" game from 1998 and expect it to work against the current rules and cards effectively. (I could have said my 1995 Type I deck, but that was so broken it was more a random role of the dice than a game of skill.) In poker, a similar standard applies. I can expect the rules to remain the same and even the same players, but if I sit down with the same strategies I used from 10 years ago, even if it was a winning strategy and I made a living at playing the game, I can't expect that same strategy to work today. Even more so, if I play a variant game (Omaha vs Texas Hold 'Em, limit vs no-limit), I have to seriously change some core strategies.

The same holds true with MMOs and going from one game to another. What works in one game may or may not work in another. The number of crafting centric games can probably be counted by hand, and crafting centric MMOs on your hands. Of the ones I can think of, a good half are PvP games (why else do all that crafting?), the others more about showing off your virtual house.

The message: Don't bring preconceptions into Salem from other games. Some things are going to be similar (dealing with asshats and griefers), but many things are going to be wildly different.

[ramuller]

To use your Magic card game analogy, it might be worse than losing your deck after a really bad beat and having to start building one all over again (I am not sure how involved/expensive that becomes).

I just don't know how many players who are attracted to the game for the crafting rather than for the PvP will restart their character more than once or twice. If one has spent months gaining high level crafting skills, it would be very frustrating to start over again. As a character gains more and more skills, the idea of venturing outside the walls of ones fortress homestead becomes less and less attractive -- does one dare wander around foraging, prospecting, or dragging ore back to the shop? At least it takes a really huge and preverse raid to fully destroy a large homestead (destroying all the high level fields and the major structures) but you can get killed if you are jumped by a small force.

Clearly there are safe ways of playing the game if you are willing to risk joining a number of bad villages in the hope of finding one that is fun to play in -- each time you try out a village (after somehow convincing them of your benign intentions) you need to worry about them taking your contributions and then turning you out or even killing you off. Not all of us have the social skills to evaluate villages from the outside without risking it all or have a pre-existing community from outside the game willing to work in common.

[a63ntorange]

I agree with the above poster, all of which would be fixed by not allowing general murder among the populace, for a mere 60 lovers lockets, that someone can make in an afternoon, and a few chests full of oatmeal crackers... Please loftar and jorb consider the harsh regular death penalty, and leave permadeath as a major part of the witchcraft factional fights. Imagine how epic it would be, having your mates, try to stop and chase down a coven of witches that were slowly dragging your corpse back to their lair, to prevent them from perma sacrificing you to the gods of mold an dirt... Or the witch coven risking everything to capture back their leaders knocked out and near lifeless corpse before the powers of christ retake her soal.

[Dallane]

YEAH!!! NO MORE PERMADEATH PLZZZZZ

[MagicManICT]

My point was that you can't come here with the same attitudes and strategies you use in other games. I'm not saying you have to throw them out the door, but you have to adapt to the situation. Read up a bit. Losing a character is a pain, but as far as death penalties go, it's less harsh than some of the hell levels back in EQ as I can get a character back up into solid stats in less time than it took to get a character through those (given all the trains, wipes, etc. on a very busy server).

Permadeath is something that will never change as the devs will never do it and I believe I'm safe in saying Paradox supports them on it. (I don't think jorb and loftar would have taken the publishing contract if that was the case, but I could be mistaken on that, too.)

[tafkas]

Permadeath is fine as long as there are no demi-gods walking the lands. This is where J&L dropped the ball on the design. Character progression is completely out of whack. There's no balance between defence and attack. Someone at some point dreamed up some superhero characters able to break empty handed thru stone walls, completely stupid idea imho and a big turnoff for any NEW players to the game.

Making a game without enforcing any anti-grief rules can be a valid development idea, also, but adding on top of it this kind of character progression basically makes Salem a game designed for griefing and those who enjoy it.

Good luck selling that one, Paradox!

[Dallane]

Permadeath is fine as long as there are no demi-gods walking the lands. This is where J&L dropped the ball on the design. Character progression is completely out of whack. There's no balance between defence and attack. Someone at some point dreamed up some superhero characters able to break empty handed thru stone walls, completely stupid idea imho and a big turnoff for any NEW players to the game.

Making a game without enforcing any anti-grief rules can be a valid development idea, also, but adding on top of it this kind of character progression basically makes Salem a game designed for griefing and those who enjoy it.

Good luck selling that one, Paradox!

Just because you don't put the time into glutton mode does not mean there are demigods walking around.

There are ways to completely stop or reduce damage.

Stone walls are 2 or 4/5 planned walls

Hire a ranger or do the job yourself.

The only way people are for sure safe atm is hiding in the darkness which will change soon and they won't be nearly as safe.

You guys need to stop spreading terrible info like this. Its like reading the SA forums about this game.

[Potjeh]

Impenetrable walls would make the game far more griefer friendly, as evidenced by H&H.