Feedback from A Beginner

[Catote]

Dear game developers

I have decided this game is not for me. But I would be happy to give some feedback, which you may or may not find useful.
1. I like the concept of an open ending crafting game a alot.
2. I need social interaction to enjoy the game in the long run, and I found none here. I managed to trade a few times in Boston, and twice I came across other people. That's simply not enough.
3. What's worse: this game discourages social interaction. At least for a player like me. When strangers came across my little farm I was afraid and didn't trust them at all. The first guy tried to kill me "I seemed to be fun", and the second guy gave me a bear skin and asked for me secret password.
4. The crafting system was fun, and so was the talent system.
5. I did miss some kind of a "greater purpose". Something that could unite me with others in a common goal. Anything in fact. Just as an example: we're settlers trying to cultivate this new land. We have a common enemy (Indians or just nature) and our collective effort make some kind of progress. I can recommend the ancient game "A tale in the Desert" where all players had this idea about conquering the GAME in co-op mode plus some individual competitions.
6. The interface is really crap.
7. The cooking system is not entirely bad, and the link to gluttony is good. But it's a bit demotivating when extreme use of wiki is necessary to sort out when I can cook.

Good luck in the future.
And thanks to all those in the community that helped out with tons of answers to my Beginners Questions.

[Trenix]

You know I was just thinking the same thing today. The game has a great theme but fails to initiate it correctly. As a settler, you were more paranoid of Indians rather than each other. Settlers were religious and welcoming, rather than murders. In this game, instead of punishing those who do crimes, Boston encourages players to be criminals with the whole scalp concept. I think was this game needs is alignments, such as settlers, witches, and Indians. To kill one of your own should be more difficult than killing the other alignment. For example, we should have to deal with lynching as settlers rather murdering and those who do murder should be punished, possibly with another lynching. Maybe a settler that murders another becomes a witch?

The idea is that there needs to be a mechanic that will draw players together rather than apart from each other. Land disputes should be more complicated and strategic than, "hey I want your land so I'm going to kill you". We need to allow players to negotiate these situations, it'll add for a more interesting environment and it'll give players another chance instead of being straight up killed.

[Feone]

This game is named Salem after the Salem witch trials, not exactly a time where pilgrims were friendly and welcoming to eachother. It's also far from finished.

I do agree with some of your points, teamwork for the sake of something other than murdering random others would be nice. As a peaceful player teaming up with others is not particularly appealing.


Other parts I really disagree with though. There are so many ways you can screw others over there really need to be options for crime. Murder may be used to attack an innocent, or it may be used to take out some guy who's been doing all they can to harass you. The balance between murder and punishment is a tricky one though. There will always be players interested in only taking down others, which is not a bad thing imo, adds to the dangerous feel of the game world.

[JohnCarver]

1. I like the concept of an open ending crafting game a alot.
2. I need social interaction to enjoy the game in the long run, and I found none here. I managed to trade a few times in Boston, and twice I came across other people. That's simply not enough.
3. What's worse: this game discourages social interaction. At least for a player like me. When strangers came across my little farm I was afraid and didn't trust them at all. The first guy tried to kill me "I seemed to be fun", and the second guy gave me a bear skin and asked for me secret password.
4. The crafting system was fun, and so was the talent system.
5. I did miss some kind of a "greater purpose". Something that could unite me with others in a common goal. Anything in fact. Just as an example: we're settlers trying to cultivate this new land. We have a common enemy (Indians or just nature) and our collective effort make some kind of progress. I can recommend the ancient game "A tale in the Desert" where all players had this idea about conquering the GAME in co-op mode plus some individual competitions.
6. The interface is really crap.
7. The cooking system is not entirely bad, and the link to gluttony is good. But it's a bit demotivating when extreme use of wiki is necessary to sort out when I can cook.

Sorry to hear that we were not able to keep your attention until we had the time to finish our road map. As for your concerns, I figure I may as well answer them so players can see what we do and do not intend to fix.

1. Glad to hear it.
2. There were 100+ people in a single place just this last weekend, there are almost always people in town. Not finding people to interact with is a larger cause of players not looking, which we do not intend to fix. As for random encounters in the wild, that will be for the smaller mapped expeditions.
3. Social interaction will always be 'dangerous' and thus appear 'discouraged'. The simple fact is if the fear of interacting overpowered your desire to interact, then you have nobody to blame but yourself. You clearly didn't want that interaction bad enought o overcome the paranoia of betrayal, however real it may or may not have been.
4. Glad to hear it.
5. Yes, this is the biggest thing I feel too. There is no common goal of the Salemites, and we anticipate that to change both on micro levels and macro levels.
6. Crap seems too harsh. But we will be making improvements.
7. Nobody 'needs' the wiki. They can all make a shed with the finished recipes and reference that shed. The fact that out of game information gathering is easier than in-game information gathering doesn't concern me as I have no intention to police the information of the internet.

[ImpalerWrG]

This game is named Salem after the Salem witch trials, not exactly a time where pilgrims were friendly and welcoming to eachother.

While it's true that people acted badly, the communities involved in thouse events were not normally engaging in random violence. People made accusations of witchcraft against folks within the community, generally for the purposes of settling old grudges and feuds, rather then at strangers. Everyone had a trial and was executed by the duly appointed legal authorities of the day. This is markedly different from the TYPE of violence we see in the game now, which is directed either at strangers, are acts of vengeance by vigilantes, or are more akin to warfare within a feudal environment. That pattern matched the time period of Haven&Hearth which is basically medieval Norse in which brutal murder at the drop of a hat was actually the norm, but it's a poor match for the more subtle nature of Salem witch trials, which would be characterized by social-climbing, gossip, rumor mongering, religious and moral hypocrisy, with a legalistic framework for all use of violence.

Unfortunately this is just a birth-defect of the whole games premise, when Jorb&Loftar decided to take H&H game-play into a colonial setting they created an irreconcilable conflict between the setting and desired game-play, JC can't resolve that conflict without throwing out either the setting or the game-play neither of which is going to happen. If we had the whole game to do over again a setting like FallOut might have been a better choice.

[Orcling]

Now we only need ducks and a scale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

[Trenix]

JC can't resolve that conflict without throwing out either the setting or the game-play neither of which is going to happen.

Not true, they just need to make some changes. When people hear about this game and play it, they're expecting to experience what the Salem witch trials had experienced. So if the developers steer their gameplay toward that, I'm sure people will adjust and will welcome it. Why does anyone want another Haven & Hearth when it already exists and it's still being worked on? The game's theme can still be saved and I think the developers are more than capable of doing it, it's just a matter if they want to. Games like these need a strong community, one that works together rather than against itself. When a new player joins the game, plays by himself through most of it, and then gets killed, do you really expect him to come back? I think alignments are greatly needed for this game to succeed further than a end of the game rage quit.

[Jackxter]

JC can't resolve that conflict without throwing out either the setting or the game-play neither of which is going to happen.

Not true, they just need to make some changes. When people hear about this game and play it, they're expecting to experience what the Salem witch trials had experienced. So if the developers steer their gameplay toward that, I'm sure people will adjust and will welcome it. Why does anyone want another Haven & Hearth when it already exists and it's still being worked on? The game's theme can still be saved and I think the developers are more than capable of doing it, it's just a matter if they want to. Games like these need a strong community, one that works together rather than against itself. When a new player joins the game, plays by himself through most of it, and then gets killed, do you really expect him to come back? I think alignments are greatly needed for this game to succeed further than a end of the game rage quit.

I've heard this point made before, the last one about newbies being driven off by being killed after making it to a point of pride, and the usual counter is: Salem isn't for everyone.

Or, as the less mature members of the forum would say: Find a new game, ******.

And true, Salem isn't for everyone, and that's a good thing. Doing the same thing as previous successes (or at least trying to) is the reason the market is filled with Call of Duties. John has done a remarkable job keeping the game true to form and his plans for the future are fairly interesting, but they seem to involve keeping a few core elements around that may be worse for the game than better. Many people are attracted to Salem for different reasons. Personally, I like it for its open-world environment, the fact that the players shape the landscape and political structures associated with it, the teamwork that goes on when people actually come together. I also like messing with certain people on the forums occasionally (Darwoth, bb, luv u ) because I'm an immature douchebag myself at times.

However, I think there are certain things that could be stripped off the game that, even once removed, will keep it as unique as it has been before, yet be inviting for more people. I have been concerned for a bit about the population of the server, which according to the status only seems to be hovering around ~600 for the last month, or at least since the time I started playing. I'm not entirely sure how this particular census measurement works, so maybe that's not the best evidence for a pattern. However, looking at the members list on the forum does show an interesting one, and one that can be backed up by other evidence on the forums:

Newbies don't like to stick around very long. Look at the members list and you'll notice the pattern. Despite the fact that there's over 100 pages of users who have posted at least five times, there are only ten pages of those with posts over ~100ish. The common facet of these people are that none of them are from 2014. Even between when John took the torch from the previous developers, that should be more than enough time for anyone who wants to get invested in the community to, well, get invested, but they don't. Why? Because a good portion, not the entire portion, but a good portion of the community are those who drive the others off, mainly taking advantage of a particularly toxic feature called Permadeath.

Hang on, better hide from the mass of pitch forks and rotten tomatoes heading my way.

...

They gone? Okay, good.

Being ganked isn't fun in any game. However, though it can be annoying at times, it can still add to the game more than it takes away. Consider WoW, getting ganked by the Horde as a poor Alliance priest was annoying as *****, but not detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game. In fact, the positives, many would argue, outweigh the drawbacks. In Salem there are a lot of benefits to it too in regards to the 'you can be a *****' factor, such as the passive tension knowing that if you don't play smartly, you could find your whole base looted or find out someone's drawn a penis in gravel outside your base. While annoying, it actually helps the game for what it does the 9 times out of 10 that you don't experience it, create tension, as said above. However, some things take longer to create than others, and by that I mean characters.

However, this isn't the nail in the coffin. What makes up for Permadeath is the Salem community, really, but only if you're lucky enough to integrate yourself into, which, given what I said above, seems easier said than done. While many users on the forum are friendly, others are not so much, and it seems that the proportion of pricks to non-pricks is a lot higher than other games simply due to the fact that those who have been playing a long time, and thus have integrated into the community, are now at a level where they know the game in and out and are at a position to easily destroy the experiences of others if they want to, and the game mechanics actually support this due to the permadeath system. I've never been killed myself, but damn, playing this game on your own only to be killed after finally getting your first house built? I'd be out of there in a heart beat unless I had some buddies who were playing with me that could help me back up on my feet. This could be solved by them coming on the forum, but damn, as I said above, the environment can be so damned hostile. I can't blame people who don't have the patience or haven't had time to really analyze and appreciate Salem for what what it is to get out of dodge.

For instance, just the other day, for funsies, I decided to post an idea I had on a Militia Baracks. It was a poor idea, but the actions of those who responded to said poor idea could have easily driven me away. Criticism is one thing, mean-spirited mocking another. Luckily, I've got a bunch of buddies playing the game with me, so me giving up didn't happen, but what if I had been a loner who simply hasn't had time to integrate yet?

My point is that though the game is taking steps to be more newbie friendly, which is admirable (even if I disagree and think the steps are in the wrong direction), the fact is that the game seems like the game is actually trying too hard to be different, and in fact, is turning into that kid at the mall with a piercing in his ***** (who may or may not be me during my emo phase). This kid didn't want to be a clone like everyone else so he ended up going in the extreme opposite direction, which is bad, too.

Still, I could beat this horse til it turns into mulch, but there's a simple set of facts that can be proven by observation, and you don't have to be a two-year-long player to understand it:

The Permadeath system's brutality, while on its own, is not a game-killer, the side-effects it spawns may just be: 1. A hostile, unsupportive forum environment where those who enjoy murdering other players react VERY fiercely to any sign of change (and whom I bet are going to react fiercely to this post as well), and 2. A highly experienced group of players, whom if even two or three of them decide, can really mess the game up for many others.

If John hadn't turned up, this game would be dead as a doornail, and I'm glad with all the interactions he has with people, but I don't believe that anything save for a major change or two in controversial directions will save the game from inevitable empty server syndrome, where even the trolls will have run back to sleep under their bridges. I'm not saying that there should be a pussyfoot punishment for death like in WoW, just nothing as extreme as it is and--

Uh oh.

... Wait, do you guys hear it?

Here comes the stampede of hate. AT THE READY!

P.S. I'm well aware I could be wrong, that's while I'll be stickin' around til I'm proven so for good .

[ImpalerWrG]

Trenix: You've misquoted my statement as belonging to Feone.

Also Carver, for all his denials that he doesn't want to copy H&H, is clearly quite committed to the core game-play style found in H&H. That of a brutal kill or be killed PvP environment to give excitement to the action oriented, along side a dangerous 'under siege' lifestyle for folks who want to be pacifist content grinders, the threat of attack giving a feeling of tension and excitement to the grind.

The game is actually more falling down mainly in the PvP area. Large scale politics and warfare are dying out and it looks like the population most likely to leave are thouse folks interested in PvP because it has become so uncompetitive, Pacifists Grinders on the other hand have plenty of content to chew through, with more on the way. Social Butterflies may also be having difficulty connecting with groups that want someone like that, about the only way they would be useful is to act as traders, the game is not making any attempt to attract and keep that type of player currently which is a shame.

[JohnCarver]

Very interesting wall of text, and yes I did read it.

Salem has, and will continue to be a platform for the players who wish to risk it all, lose it all, and generally have a unique gaming experience they wont' find elsewhere. Unique does not mean better, or worse, but simply unique as only the end-user will be able to confidently claim if it is a superior experience for them. I believe the bigger reality to realize is that people play video games for different reasons. I would argue that most players play video games to relax, enjoy, and otherwise escape the realities of life. A mini vacation from the real world that is only a computer terminal away. Who wants to have their vacation plans ruined? Who wants to go to vacation only to find out their hotel is over booked or their tour guide got sick etc. etc. Mainstream gaming figured out a good decade ago that if you simply eliminate 99% of the 'bad experiences' and force people into states of forced positive progression they will have a much longer player retention. The latest few games that are releasing without chat interfaces so that players cannot slander one another is just one more step in that direction. The reality is, Salem wants nothing to do with those players, and those players want nothing to do with Salem.

Now, there exists another type of gamer. One who doesn't 'escape' to video games but one who uses them as a medium for competition fully understanding the pain of loss and signing up for it all over again anyway. There are gamers who do not sit down at their computer to 'escape and relax' but instead to increase their heart rate, release some adrenaline, and otherwise prove themselves on a controlled environment where a 18 year old at an internet cafe stands the same odds as a 50 year old mufti-millionaire . There are gamers who quantify their triumphs by directly contrasting them to their failures. I prefer people with this general mindset, competitive edge, and drive to succeed, if even in something as trivial as 'a video game'. Salem is being built for these gamers for two reasons. The first, because I feel that without Salem they are near home-less as almost every MMO on the market has shareholders, margins, bottom-lines, and greed motivating their choices over their principles. The second, because I consider myself one of them.

A bit of a rant, and possibly off-topic. But a little bit of insight none-the-less.