Expedition vs. Providence PVP Ruleset Vote

[Tamasin]

Isn't there like... some middle ground between the options?

I've been concerned for a while about what jc has said he intends with pvp. I've been thinking about it and trying and failing to come to a solution of what exactly I think should be done.

Removal of waste claims and adding cannons etc sounds like leaving scents will be absolute suicide in almost 100% of cases and that things would quickly devolve into raiders constantly rebuilding crappy little crime alts that soon die. That does not sound fun at all. It sounds heaps ****! Summon kills suck!

I want to see less summon kills happening and more actual combat deaths and actual raiding of bases and people trying to defend their bases! People so rarely try to defend their bases, it's actually never happened to me so far, and if waste claims are completely removed it will be even less likely to happen because raiders will just wait until they can be pretty sure the townies are asleep for the night before attacking. And cannons just sound crap imo sorry lol. I guess it could be alright as a tool for lower bile players to try to get through some walls that would otherwise be too strong for them... maybe.

Rather than try to change the pvp climate completely like this, shouldn't the first thing be to fix what we have already? Raiding is broken, and I know that if it was fixed people would raid more, resulting in more deaths than we have now, and with the purity grind people are getting more incentive to defend their places which although idk from experience I hear is still OP. Some of the things wrong with raiding now are: OP-ness of p claims vs v claims, brazier dmg too high, 5 p claim cap is dumb, building defences to nerf braziers is the most retarded thing ever, and the perma damage from braziers and torches is way beyond ridiculous and makes it totally not worth it. Personal claims and town claims need to be rebalanced in their bb costs to raid on and the risk of being KO'd on it (you still wake up right away if KO on a v claim with no p claim and while bb costs of crimes on p claims soon become stupidly high, on a v claim they're never something to even consider really). It's also a massive pain in the ass dragging leanto alts around all the time and not being able to camp places too long because we need to go home to glutton.

I don't like how braziers work. While I appreciate that you now have to put a little thought so as not to place them stupidly, I honestly preferred braziers as they were in the old world, both as a raider and a base builder. There was a much more sensible relationship between effort put in and difficulty to raid. There was more possibility to be creative in designing the base, and it was more possible (tho took forever) to make the epic castle of your dreams which would be extremely hard and risky for anyone to raid. I would prefer we went back to the old brazier system.

In short, I would like to see more actual fighting and raiding causing deaths on providence and do not want the summon killing of players who didn't even get a chance to defend their bases against it. As for expeditions? I hope they will be tough and there will be some crazy rules and stuff.

[ImpalerWrG]

It should be clear to everyone that with the likes of Darwoth advocating for the the status-quo that this is not a choice between PvP and Carebear.

It is a choice between preserving the current stagnant 'Won' server political environment, vs blowing up that political stability by making a (slim) possibility for the former losers to overthrow the groups that have won, and for any future 'king-of-the-hill' to be vastly more vulnerable going forward.

Personally I do not enjoy this moribund political environment, town formation is down, large scale war is absent, elite groups mostly grind content and purity they no longer need for the gaining or maintaining of dominance, and when they do kill it is some newb who has mostly been caught at some petty crime. Even the elites are likely becoming bored with this situation, but they likely can not come to openly supporting a change which could dethrone them.

I'm also HIGHLY skeptical that Salem will ever get to the point where it can simply 'run forever' without collapsing into a state of political stagnation, resource exhaustion or being covered in ruined abandoned bases every 3rd mini-map. Haven never managed to get to that state, periodic restart of 'worlds' (more often then not caused by a data corruption then by choice) were really essential to keeping the game from stagnating. Games that run 'forever' with a PvP environment like EvE online don't have such brutal perma-death AND feature a lot of 'safe' areas for newbs to build, AND groups systems that do not allow devastating betrayals. It would take some very extreme changes to keep stagnation from occurring in Salem given the fundamentals that JC has adopted, and even then I wouldn't bet on more then 2 years of sustained activity.

[lachlaan]

groups systems that do not allow devastating betrayals.

Haven't checked EVE in ages, but from what I remember it was commonplace for a corp to get totally rekt by betrayal every other week. Oh you needed that Freighter full of 3bil ISK goodies? Oops I accidentally into the enemy hands, sorreh. *vanish*

[Darwoth]

you are a moron, i have over 30 murder capable characters already developed. i have a half dozen near or above 200 stats with 230+ cloak and dagger not even including main characters. i could orchestrate a series of cannon raids EVERY WEEK and lose a character EACH time for the next 6 months and still be among the top politically. i could QUIT for a year, return and instantly be relevant as soon as i came back.

this choice is nothing about pvp vs carebear and has jack **** to do with maintaining the "status quo" (which is only "maintained" due to the dim wits and cowardice of the opposition) it is a decision centering around whether or not people that do not have 20 hours a day to devote to the game should be allowed to play it at a competitive level or not the way they have been for the past 3 years.

there is a GOOD reason that every single siege based pvp game in the last 12 years has utilized a time release siege mechanic (waste claims), it is because the vast majority of pvp minded players are the "old" generation of gamers like myself who are not teenagers or failed adults with no responsibilities that do not want to sit on their ass all day at the screen even if they did have the option.


i don't think you retards realize what the possible changes actually entail. it means nothing you have would ever be secure (not that it is now persay, but moreso). it means you can spend months collecting your turkeys, raising your purity, gathering gear, collecting hats, decorations or whatever else you deem worthy of investing time in and anyone with a few grand to spend on a cannon and a don't give a **** attitude (me) can saunter on by and ***** the entire thing while your getting a blowjob on the couch without so much as a warning.

those advocating for such a system in this thread are primarily those who do not play the game, have no grasp on the fallout of said systems and as such their thoughts are relatively worthless. this is evidenced by buffoons like the above with pearls of "wisdom" about maintaining the status quo, when the reality is that cannon implementation along with other harsh mechanics would simply propel myself and others to the top even quicker when the rest of the server logs on the next day to wrecked walls and a looted base and half then inevitably quit removing them from the pool of competition.


with this thread i am reminded of the various "resets" the game has undergone over the years, each and every time we have a legion of droolcups come in and run off at the mouth to all the vets that are pissed off over said wipe, accuse them of being afraid of getting owned now etc ( ) and the reason they dont want a wipe is because they wont have imaginary nonexistent advantages. then 2 weeks later the same people are on top yet again and the retards get themselves killed and are not heard from again until the next time.


leave providence as it is, simply tone down brazier damage (should just revert braziers back to how they were before wipe imo, it was decently balanced then) and we will see raids soon enough as the server matures. leave cannons and the assorted fast paced tools for the fast paced settings of expeditions.

[ImpalerWrG]

Hit a nerve their did I,

[lachlaan]

Stubborness to understand a concept usually hits the dunce cap nerve, except Darwoth can't give you a dunce cap like JC could xD I feel Darwoth's made a pretty detailed post explaining the issues with turning Salem into a deathmatch, or at least with removing waste claims. If anything, the one change that could be made to make Salem harsher PvP wise would be to lower defense durability a bit, but keep waste claims and make them more flexible.

It's not that people don't like the idea of potentially being raided and raiding. It's that people don't like the idea of being helpless during a raid that happens when you sleep, and as long as you ever do sleep, another faction can always orchestrate that raid while you sleep. So, to please the 1/3rd of the population that either didn't understand the question or legitimately want more drama and mayhem, I think the best way to do it would be to make it so you can pay a Trial by Fire to stall it until a time when you can defend. The cost would increase quite a bit for each extra hour you add to its timer, and the attackers would get to keep half the money you pay while half (king's tax can be settled afterwards) goes to the king. It'd have to be set up so that the first 12 hours or so, to allow for not getting raided mid-night would cost not too much (as to discourage people specifically dropping claims that would be ready at 3:30AM enemy time) , but when it's obvious you're just trying to buy time, the cost would get way steeper. This way the attacker gets some loot out of it, and if all goes well gets a fun fight with defenders defending and attackers attacking, all actively, with passive defenses being only of moderate aid.

[Feone]

Stubborness to understand a concept usually hits the dunce cap nerve, except Darwoth can't give you a dunce cap like JC could xD I feel Darwoth's made a pretty detailed post explaining the issues with turning Salem into a deathmatch, or at least with removing waste claims. If anything, the one change that could be made to make Salem harsher PvP wise would be to lower defense durability a bit, but keep waste claims and make them more flexible.

It's not that people don't like the idea of potentially being raided and raiding. It's that people don't like the idea of being helpless during a raid that happens when you sleep, and as long as you ever do sleep, another faction can always orchestrate that raid while you sleep. So, to please the 1/3rd of the population that either didn't understand the question or legitimately want more drama and mayhem, I think the best way to do it would be to make it so you can pay a Trial by Fire to stall it until a time when you can defend. The cost would increase quite a bit for each extra hour you add to its timer, and the attackers would get to keep half the money you pay while half (king's tax can be settled afterwards) goes to the king. It'd have to be set up so that the first 12 hours or so, to allow for not getting raided mid-night would cost not too much (as to discourage people specifically dropping claims that would be ready at 3:30AM enemy time) , but when it's obvious you're just trying to buy time, the cost would get way steeper. This way the attacker gets some loot out of it, and if all goes well gets a fun fight with defenders defending and attackers attacking, all actively, with passive defenses being only of moderate aid.

Could work. Assuming scents don't immediately allow opponents to compromise walls and defenses. Which I believe was the current intention. (Along the lines of don't KO/punch/kill people if you don't want to get wrecked with scents.) Which would make base defense beyond repairs & brazier filling simply nonexistant anyway. Perhaps a waste claim could reduce the penalty on combat under it.

[Darwoth]

Stubborness to understand a concept usually hits the dunce cap nerve, except Darwoth can't give you a dunce cap like JC could xD I feel Darwoth's made a pretty detailed post explaining the issues with turning Salem into a deathmatch, or at least with removing waste claims. If anything, the one change that could be made to make Salem harsher PvP wise would be to lower defense durability a bit, but keep waste claims and make them more flexible.

It's not that people don't like the idea of potentially being raided and raiding. It's that people don't like the idea of being helpless during a raid that happens when you sleep, and as long as you ever do sleep, another faction can always orchestrate that raid while you sleep. So, to please the 1/3rd of the population that either didn't understand the question or legitimately want more drama and mayhem, I think the best way to do it would be to make it so you can pay a Trial by Fire to stall it until a time when you can defend. The cost would increase quite a bit for each extra hour you add to its timer, and the attackers would get to keep half the money you pay while half (king's tax can be settled afterwards) goes to the king. It'd have to be set up so that the first 12 hours or so, to allow for not getting raided mid-night would cost not too much (as to discourage people specifically dropping claims that would be ready at 3:30AM enemy time) , but when it's obvious you're just trying to buy time, the cost would get way steeper. This way the attacker gets some loot out of it, and if all goes well gets a fun fight with defenders defending and attackers attacking, all actively, with passive defenses being only of moderate aid.

yeah the "siege clock" has worked well in a few games, typically the attacker lays down the "challenge" object which by default goes active at XX hours from placement, however an officer of the guild with the sieged asset was able to interact with the challenge objext x (2 - 4) hours after placement he could then manipulate that time prior to activation within a 6 hour window +/- of when it was placed.

this retains giving the element of control/surprise to the attacker who can still guard the challenge object preventing access to maintain their time/attack plan. but it simultaneously gives the inhabitants time to raise a defense and instigates small scale conflict immediately over who is going to control the time of the siege.

[Darwoth]

personally i liked haven ram system, the reason it did not work as well as it could have is due to it's range before needing to be repaired being to short and towns growing beyond the scope of that range.

in general.....

it allowed for the patient to place lots of rams over weeks and hope one was missed.
allowed for the creative to try and sneak one and have a surprise attack.
allowed for the determined to guard them or wall them and zerg their way in
and most importantly it allowed for active defenders with regular patrols around their base to spot them, drawing people outside of their base several times a day and fostering potential conflict, during times of conflict between towns folks would frequently form little 2 - 3 man squads to do the patrol in case there was an ambush

[jesi]

this choice is nothing about pvp vs carebear and has jack **** to do with maintaining the "status quo" (which is only "maintained" due to the dim wits and cowardice of the opposition) it is a decision centering around whether or not people that do not have 20 hours a day to devote to the game should be allowed to play it at a competitive level or not the way they have been for the past 3 years.

there is a GOOD reason that every single siege based pvp game in the last 12 years has utilized a time release siege mechanic (waste claims), it is because the vast majority of pvp minded players are the "old" generation of gamers like myself who are not teenagers or failed adults with no responsibilities that do not want to sit on their ass all day at the screen even if they did have the option.
. . . leave providence as it is, simply tone down brazier damage (should just revert braziers back to how they were before wipe imo, it was decently balanced then) and we will see raids soon enough as the server matures. leave cannons and the assorted fast paced tools for the fast paced settings of expeditions.

In a nutshell. Agree 100%. I can also say this and I think I represent some small percentage of players. If I can be killed offline without ever having left a scent, I will no longer be a Salemite. Don't know if JC is thinking along those lines, but for what it's worth.