Expedition vs. Providence PVP Ruleset Vote

[JohnCarver]

Greetings Salemites,
I have recently been getting a 'fair' amount of push-back on the direction I wish for pvp and sieges to go. While I would like to think that many are here and enjoying the game for the ability and fear of 'losing it all', there are a good number of players who seem unable to come to terms with the idea that they will die, and wish to have the 'permadeath' bragging title in name only and not actual in-game application.

As you know, Expeditions are/were scheduled within 90-180 days of the PVP patch. So the question that I am loosely considering at the moment, since expeditions are going to be fairly different in their own right with their own set of rules for numerous things is do I isolate the more punishing mechanics (such as cannons) to expedition servers and leave Providence in a relatively what I would consider 'broken' state of affairs. Broken being acceptable if I simply allow myself to let the idea prevail that sometimes players can invest large amounts of time for small increments of total safety.

If I let go of the fundamental principle that Salemites should simply 'not be allowed to play' if they do not sign up for the full experience of total and complete loss at all hours of the day, then there is certainly nothing wrong with letting Providence (The permanent server), ("No this doesn't mean that we are signing up to never wipe providence... that is too still undecided based on a lot of factors") and Expeditions (The temporary exploration server/area) diverge in their PVP mechanics. With expeditions being 'finite' in duration the risk of loss already encourages more pvp interaction as players on expeditions will go there having no expectation to not 'eventually' lose their character anyway.

So..... Big-time game-changer here to consider before I finalize up the roadmap. I want to see where y'all really stand. To clarify the poll options.

Option #1: Providence stays similar after the new systems where it is extremely hard to die/lose a base. I.E. Cannons might come but they would be 5,000 silver on expeditions and 100,000 silver on providence. Or otherwise absurd mechanics where providence is simply not the time efficient place to raise havoc.

Option #2: Stick to our guns, force everybody to man up or go home. Balance the PVP with the general principle that everybody can die at any time if their aggressor wants to put in the effort to do so. Drink and harvest the tears of those who cannot handle it.

[JohnCarver]

for clarification I left poll option A to say "as close as possible" to reflect the fact that I don't see anyway I refuse to make at least some changes towards harder-to-make defenses and easier-to-breach mechanics. Mechanics against scent-leavers, and incentive to 'spam' more braziers than you have currently are almost a given. Its the:

Removal of Waste Claims
Implementation of Cannons
Nerfing of brazier damage

etc. etc. that would be the 'harsh' conditions that could be expedition only.

[Darwoth]

depends on the specifics of cannons, but in general i think leaving providence as it is and implementing the differing siege rulesets for the expeditions is the correct way to go. providence should be slower paced as a "home base" server imo so that when time does not allow folk can play at a slower pace and when it does they can powergame or zerg in an expedition.

[Jackxter]

Personally, I'm all for there being warfare in Salem, as it gives purpose to essentially everything that's done in the game. Perhaps not to everybody, but to me, the ultimate objective of someone in Salem is to stay alive. While in many other games, trolls and grievers wouldn't be welcome, in this one, they actually serve a purpose in creating that subtle bit of fear in the back of your mind whenever you play, especially when you spot another player. It gives the game tension other games such as WoW, for instance, can't hope to achieve, as the consequence for failure is nothing more than a pinprick there.

However, on the other hand, as I've seen with Haven and Hearth, a permadeath system sort of encourages stagnant gameplay. Most players (save for those who have time to make alts or those who don't give two *****) tend to sit inside of fortifications, essentially hiding because they simply don't want to lose all the time and effort that goes into making a character worth caring about. It may seem silly, but everything that has value in real life or in the game world really only has value due to the amount of time invested into getting whatever it is, whether it be a fancy sports car or a high-level character. Thus, in this case, the permadeath system sort of works against what it was supposed to create in the first place: fear, as players who have been in the game long enough eventually learn that mostly everyone else is as cowardly as they are.

Thanks to the new patch, however, where it's fairly easy to boost a character's humors, this problem is still present, but lightened significantly.

However, I wish there was some sort of middle ground people could agree on, a system that creates legitimate fear that players actually participate in on instead of hiding all the time. Conflict needs to happen, intricate conflict especially (like with grand sieges and cannons), for the game to stay interesting, but the problem is that too harsh of a punishment will keep players out of it, and too light will take away the fear that makes the game great. I'm probably going to get lynched for saying this, but taking permadeath out of the game might be the answer, but still keep the punishment for 'death' (when another player chooses to scalp someone) pretty harsh. Take away all of the player's property markers, if they're in a village, have the upkeep or whatever it's called for the village lower by a certain percentage, remove all of their silver, have them lose 25% of their humors, that kind of thing.

I dunno, just talking out of my ass, but in regards to the poll, I think Option #2 would be the best.

[Procne]

First, what will be the relation between expedition servers and providence? Will they be totally separate, with separate characters and no item / character transfer in any form, at any time? Will the outcome of expeditions somehow impact the Providence?

[Eivind]

I like the idea of nerfing defence. But you should give us right to self-defense, meaning removal of summon on battery evidence, that leading to death regardless the result of combat with opponent's alt character.

[Potjeh]

I voted yes even though I think ultimately Providence should have warfare too. It's just that in the process of balancing PvP there's bound to be a lot of trial and error which could cost a lot of people a lot of time investment. So IMO you should keep Providence carebear until you've completely hammered out the balance in expeditions. And I mean completely, please don't jump to conclusions before a balance change has had plenty of time to prove itself in real situations.

[JohnCarver]

First, what will be the relation between expedition servers and providence? Will they be totally separate, with separate characters and no item / character transfer in any form, at any time? Will the outcome of expeditions somehow impact the Providence?

This is the last marker on our road map, and so much is still in the air. The servers will definitely be 'related' to each other and here are some examples of 'how'.

A) Dead Character on Expedition can be inherited for X% of his stats back on Providence. Sending his 'last born child' home to Providence before dying.

B) Town on Expedition may be able to send a 'carepackage' of 16 items home every 60 days. As expeditions are intended to be the new way to 'seed' things on providence.

C) Towns on Providence may be able to push silver to their 'ally-town' on the expedition.


So certainly they will be able to influence one-another. But it is currently not the intention for that influence to be in any dramatic way.

depends on the specifics of cannons, but in general i think leaving providence as it is and implementing the differing siege rulesets for the expeditions is the correct way to go. providence should be slower paced as a "home base" server imo so that when time does not allow folk can play at a slower pace and when it does they can powergame or zerg in an expedition.

Without making any serious jabs @ the player I love to hate and hate to love. The fact that Darwoth votes the Carebear option highlights a major reason I am considering this. There is an argument to be made that there is a 'time and a place' for the crazy level of shennanigans I want to see in sieges and general destruction. And perhaps that time and place is not providence.

Although, the other side of me hates the idea that somebody simply quits salem because they are 'bored'. I would rather see people quit in an explosion of tears and emotion than have them simply 'burn-out'. So a part of me thinks why not let everybody die in a way that they will remember and an experience they wont' find in any other MMO at the moment, because after all, isn't that why we are here?....

Decisions.....

[lachlaan]

I'm with Darwoth on this one. Providence, and the main server in general in whatever form it may be, should let players enjoy the intricate crafting system and building system, while still making it possible to get severely crippled should you tick off the wrong people. As it stands we've seen Juda/Lallaith punch some braziers just fine, and god knows if Biddas came at a brazier it'd probably just disable out of fear. The point is with current defenses and current obtainable biles, there's still the possibility for raiding between factions angry at one another while also allowing for the slower pace people need to enjoy the actual game mechanics, rather than have to nolife their way back to 100 biles from scratch.

A harsher PvP system would basically make Salem .. a MOBA with really long respawn and levelling time, where you build your own infrastructure rather than have it laid out for you in advance. And while that sort of thing might be fun in and of itself, I think expeditions are the proper outlet for that sort of gameplay.

My main concern (as stated in the PvP suggestion thread before) with easy raiding is that it'd just lock most players in the middle area of the game, and never allow them to experience its full awesomeness.

[Eivind]

Yo should implement death from old age (perhaps 1-2 month random)