The PVP MegaThread

[RonPaulFTW]

makes sense - but how do I break into the base without one of the above? Is there some idea of a mechanic that breaking into a base is easier if you have scents?

It is certainly on the table.

As much as I think this would be interesting I'm at a loss for how to make it work well. Because with the mechanic in place why ever bother to build base defenses to protect scented characters? It wouldn't be worth the effort bc the defenses are negated by scents anyway.

So I think what you would see is all criminal characters are expected one time use throwaway alts and raiding only happens when the perceived benefit outweighs the cost of the cannon and replacing the alt. This would provide a strong disincentive to harassing n00bs - but I do think there should be some level of difficulty in punishing criminals.

[ImpalerWrG]

To expand on this idea of different defense mechanics for property and characters.

All current defense mechanics would fall under property defense, these consist of

* Claims both personal and village
* Locks & Keys
* Walls that block movement
* Stationary "Towers" that 'fire' upon attackers

All property defenses are structures or in some way exist in space and are not specific to a character (even claims are protecting the stuff on the claim rather then the character). They can be overcome by a high humor character and the expenditure of material resources like silver/cannons etc.

On the other hand character defense, specifically offline defense of a character for which the attacker has a scent should be done with things OTHER then structures. They need to be defenses that associate specifically to the character being protected and not to physical space. Options include.

* The Homestead structure itself being upgraded/buffed
* Gear worn by the character when logged off
* Skills possessed by the character
* Humor levels of the character
* Items consumed to give a timed buff to the offline character

Again these things all consume resources to use or are the result of ones character building over time. They can be overcome by the same means, high humor characters and resource expenditure, and as JC indicates the back and forth can be one that leaves the attacker as the final arbiter.

The key is that property defense structures/systems can be heavily favorable to the defender, Attackers need to make high expenditures compared to the defender to do damage to property and the damage will be limited. While character defense can be balanced in a radically different way with the favor given to the attacker if they have a scent on their target, innocent offline characters are invulnerable so innocents will be able to completely skip setting up character defense mechanisms as logging off is all then need to do to become invulnerable. All character defense mechanics can thus be balanced around the assumption that they are defenses we are willing to give to a criminal, this is something property defense can never do because property doesn't carry guilt or innocence.

[Potjeh]

You could make it easier to kill someone with scents by using them to increase the crime threshold at which the claim defences activate. Unique scents only, ofc. To do away with the alt vs alt problem, make the size of this increase depend on a roll of the summoner's L&L against the target's C&D (maybe obfuscate the result somewhat, to introduce an element of risk). So if you want to summon someone you either need a character with high level of L&L (and then you'd also want high C&D too so he doesn't get counter-summoned), or a lot of unique scents, which shouldn't be easy to get if your target is smart (if he leaves a ton of scents at the same place he only has himself to blame for getting summoned). So that this system isn't abused for base destruction, attacking braziers should cause them to trigger immediately, no matter how much evidence was used on the claim. Even better would be triggering braziers for *any* vandalism, but for that we'd need to be able to climb over walls instead of breaking through them, and braziers would need to activate for summoning (else they might as well not exist for character defence).

[RonPaulFTW]

Should you be safe in providence if you have scents out?

I guess criminals probably wouldn't come to town if they weren't - but it is an interesting thought nonetheless. If we get lesser punishments (stocks, prison, ransom/bail) maybe you can apply them to criminals found in providence without having to first ko.

[Potjeh]

Meh, I think it's fine as it is, being summonable at your homestead when you're in Providence.

[ImpalerWrG]

I really like Proficiencies being used some how, Cloakd & Dagger vs Law and Lore, Criminal vs Ranger, very much like Haven & Hearth which had a good Rangering system.

Criminals being caught in Boston sounds nice too, wanted criminals can't freely enter town (unless Masks?). I could see it done two ways, either you need to literally walk up to a guy and bludgeon him with the scent and can then punish him (maybe not murdering though?). Or you could use the scent on an NPC which will set the 'town guard' to catch the criminal if they show up. Considering how briefly most folks stay in Boston I can't really see the two players being in Boston simultaneously as much of a threat to the criminal and it's just BORING to wait around on the chance that the criminal will come to town, and if the person apprehending in this way were to leave scents too, right in Boston it's not going to be worth it.

The town guard apprehending thing should cost some money to set up and be temporary, more money needs to periodically go into it to keep it active, and I'd give the criminal some means of evading it too, so they can still risk it if they really want to get something from town. What I would not do is just flat out bar the criminal from fast travel to Boston, that's boring and presents no counter-play.

[Potjeh]

It shouldn't be just L&L vs C&D, though, because that wouldn't work for lower level players trying to bring a higher level player to justice. The heart of my suggestion is the number of different scents.

I think this can create an interesting game of cat and mouse. The thief would need need to guesstimate from the development level of a base how high it's owner's L&L is, and by that decide how many scents he can safely leave. Of course, the victim might hire a more developed ranger, so it's best to err well on the safe side and steal just the couple of most valuable items from any one base and instead hit many different bases. The ranger would then have to "build a case" against the thief, ie collect evidence from multiple crime scenes. Basically, the ranger's job would be to figure out the crime pattern, and the thief's job would be to make the pattern convoluted. This would foster cooperation between rangers, because exchanging evidence would be the most effective way to get enough to summon a thief. Of course, there's the other side of the medal, and if a ranger is a bit overzealous a criminal organization could gather enough evidence on him to summon him. So in practice if you're a small time thief it'd be unlikely to have a top level ranger come after you.

There's an obvious problem with this system: what if you want to totally destroy a base, which would leave a ton of scents at one place? I think waste claims could be well repurposed here. Simply have them allow criminal acts without leaving any scents. Waste claiming someone would basically be declaration of war, and the victor never gets tried for war crimes IRL Anyway, I think that such a powerful ability shouldn't be used for trivial purposes, so I think the cost of the waste claim should be significantly increased as well as having each crime it negates drain upkeep.

[Orcling]

If you implement this ****** system you thought up in your head, I hope that at the very least you'll nuke all scents that were created before people knew you'd come up with this ****** system. Just like you nuke iron etc. etc.

If you ruin peoples efforts, you might as well wipe their bad deeds too.

[RonPaulFTW]

After the purity patch - it looks like the most valuable items in a base will not necessarily be a character or even a golden goose - but the purity turkey coops, pots, and fields that took a year to make. In some sense these are just as hard or harder to replace than your main character.

You can protect your main character by leaving him scent free and logging him out when danger approaches. You can't log out your purity structures. So - should soak value, hit points, salt required to destroy, etc... increase with purity? pvp arson patch might say buildings can't be fully destroyed - they just need repaired. What about purity fields though?

[KruskDaMangled]

After the purity patch - it looks like the most valuable items in a base will not necessarily be a character or even a golden goose - but the purity turkey coops, pots, and fields that took a year to make. In some sense these are just as hard or harder to replace than your main character.

You can protect your main character by leaving him scent free and logging him out when danger approaches. You can't log out your purity structures. So - should soak value, hit points, salt required to destroy, etc... increase with purity? pvp arson patch might say buildings can't be fully destroyed - they just need repaired. What about purity fields though?

I was just thinking about this (Logging out when it's dangerous) and I feel like unless you are in a "safe" location, (I.E. next to your homestead) you should not be able to instantly log out. If you are in a dangerous location quick logging before someone can engage you should not be a way to escape danger or violence, your character should stick around for a period if you do that.

The way you would get away, basically, out of your town or claim would be dropping everything you had (maybe implement a button to dump everything fast? or not, maybe part of "deserving" to get away is being relatively quick about it.) and then using port home. You escape whoever you didn't want to fight, and if they wander over near where they saw you, they get your stuff.

Other games have implemented notions of things basically, not being "safe" except in a few choice locations, and it worked. And Salem is not supposed to be a "safe" game. You want to keep your Nice Things, you either ditch someone by retreating overland successfully, fighting them, or abandoning your stuff. (The main idea is the "no quick logging to be safe HURR HURR though. )