Weapons & War (A new Profficiency)

[ImpalerWrG]

Currently their exists only one proficiency (Cloak & Dagger) that serves as a prerequisite for all criminal and combat skills. To help create a better distinction between the sneaky rouge/thief game-play and that of the in-your-face fighter I proposed that C&D get split into two Proficiencies, a sneaky oriented one retaining the name Cloak & Dagger and a new proficiency focusing on direct combat which I propose to name "Weapons & War".

Current skills that require C&D would split as so

W&W: Self Defense, Pugilism, Rights o Englishman, Fencing, Fire Arms, Clubbing, Polearms, Cain & Abel

C&D: Trespassing, Larceny, Waste, Big Game, Fast Moves, Monster Hunting

The general theme should be apparent, C&D includes crimes against property, combat moves not linked to specific weapons and Hunting skills and if it ever gets added any Tracking/Ranger stuff. W&W opens all crimes against persons and weapons specific skills (which I imagine their will be more of in the future).

[JohnCarver]

Yes I like this. Although, its difficult for us to add new systems when we feel the existing systems have so much work to be finished up and polished up. We hope to explore things like this in Salem Expansion Packs.

[ImpalerWrG]

Expanding proficiencies is a rather disruptive move that's for sure, my though was this would go well in the Professions update. From what you've described their will be some 'cap-stone' skills that help to define the games professions much like Viscera & Bits is already doing. This along with the bonus effects that scale with Proficiencies (btw everything but Thread&Needle and Stocks&Cultivars bonuses suck) this kind of implies a 1:1 with Professions and Proficiencies so biting that all off together would seem to make sense.

Their is also the question of how Witches are going to going to be integrated into Proficiencies and if that necessitates a new one. I've always suspected that Perennial Philosophy was an aborted attempt by Jorb/Loftar to create a witchcraft oriented proficiency (which explains the damn annoying way that it's raised and why it doesn't open up much). If your going to keep the idea of a single proficiency oriented towards witchcraft could you rename it to something like "Hocus Pocus" or just strait up "Witchcraft" something that would have a more thematic feel then this current bland name which is easily confused with Natural Philosophy.

[DarkNacht]

If your going to keep the idea of a single proficiency oriented towards witchcraft could you rename it to something like "Hocus Pocus" or just strait up "Witchcraft" something that would have a more thematic feel then this current bland name which is easily confused with Natural Philosophy.

Having it called Perennial Philosophy makes sense and allows it to be useful for far more that just witchcraft, also its fairlly difficult to confuse PerenP with NatP.

[Potjeh]

I think we should avoid adding more proficiencies unless absolutely necessary. There's plenty as it is and most of them need to be fluffed out more.

[ImpalerWrG]

I think we should avoid adding more proficiencies unless absolutely necessary. There's plenty as it is and most of them need to be fluffed out more.

I'd certainly agree that filling out is important, the biggest gap are the bonus effects which are either suck or absent, but thouse bonuses need to work in some intelligent way with crafting system so their are actual reasons to grind them to very high level, no ones going to grind 300 Survival & Wilderness to make a fishing lure last forever.

If your concerned that existing characters could get screwed, then just have current C&D level of each character applied to the new proficiency. The split of existing skills to use one or the other proficiency in place of their current C&D costs would be a bit of a barrier to new players obtaining the same skill set though. The biggest hurdle would be designing and likely expanding curios.

The only other proficiency idea I've seen that I like was a 'Nautical' proficiency, but that would need a vast expansion of the games nautical content and probably a better fishing mini game to link the skill bonus too. Even the W&W would need better capstone skills and effects to really be worth implementing and that's kind of the idea, that the amount of good 'fluff' that should exist is more then fits in one proficiency.

[DarkNacht]

Even the W&W would need better capstone skills and effects to really be worth implementing and that's kind of the idea, that the amount of good 'fluff' that should exist is more then fits in one proficiency.

While splitting C&D and W&W would require more skills to fill them out, I think the cannon would probably make for a sufficiently good 200 level W&W skill.

[JohnCarver]

I think you are being quite unfair to the bonus'. Law & Lore, Sugar & Spice, and Natrual Philo all have very powerful passive bonus'.

[ImpalerWrG]

It would be better to say I consider them boring rather then weak, aka they suck cause they aren't fun aren't the basis for a specialized character.

Law & Lore: Just a silver refund, boring
Sugar & Spice: Obsoleted by Purgative which means this is just defacto silver/grind time refund now.
Natrual Philo: Just saves grind time on tree cutting and planting

We need bonus effects that are more tangible, effecting the performance of the crafting system in a way that is really easy to see and feel and lets us make things actually BETTER not just grind our time more efficiently. Thread&Needle and Stocks&Cultivars are the only ones that fit that criteria. M&M dose some decent stuff but it's a grab bag without a lot of cohesion.

Also can I assume your admitting that all of the other Proficiency effects (where they even exist) do in fact suck both from a power and fun standpoint?

I think the fishing mini-game is a great example of how proficiency bonuses should not be done, the proficiency never touches or alters the mini-game but instead messes with stuff on the periphery like gear wear rates and capping purity. How about having the proficiency give the player more/less choices in the game, or modify the number of success needed to get the fish, then you would be experiencing the effect directly each time you fish. Gear wear on the other hand just makes low proficiency fishing a hassle because our lures self-destruct so rapidly and the benefits of high proficiency is that we save a few lures.

Some ideas

Cloak&Dagger: Something like stealth/perception in H&H, crimes being detected/hidden based on Proficiency.
Faith&Wisdom: Allows more stuff to be put in churches per that Sacred item idea, higher proficiency allows more 'light'.
Pots&Pans: Have a real cooking mini-game and P&P actually lets you cook better food.
Sparks&Embers: Purity on metal should be linked to a more interactive smelting process that uses Proficiency.
Natural Philosophy: Seems like the natural place for effects to the alchemy system to go.

[DarkNacht]

^

I'd say that the current bonuses are mostly fine, they are varied and interesting, though more need to be added.
Frontier, S&C, and NatP are all critical for purity grind, all though with the change in how purity grind this will likely become less useful.
H&N, L&L, and S&C is well worth the grind and forces you to make the decision whether or not to consume your current output to increase your future output.
Frontier, M&M, and H&G increase your purity in their areas which is very important, and hopefully will continue to be.
The P&P bonus would be important if it was not so easier to make purity clay with water.
S&E was important before tinder dills become easy to not KO yourself with, so now probably could use a new purpose.
T&N is of course critical for the bonus it gives to clothing diff and to slotting slot expansions and civ clothing.
S&S and NatP allow you to save money on pots by increasing or replication their effect.
C&D slots combat gear.
PerenP slots Hidden Pockets in everything(well most things).
There is a large variety of very impactful bonus, and while we could use more most of the current ones are well worth specializing for.

Some ideas

Cloak&Dagger: Something like stealth/perception in H&H, crimes being detected/hidden based on Proficiency.
Faith&Wisdom: Allows more stuff to be put in churches per that Sacred item idea, higher proficiency allows more 'light'.
Pots&Pans: Have a real cooking mini-game and P&P actually lets you cook better food.
Sparks&Embers: Purity on metal should be linked to a more interactive smelting process that uses Proficiency.

The hidden crime system always seemed dumb to me, its should be fairly obvious that a crime was committed, when there is a dead body or a bashed in wall. C&D would be put to better use if it gave you more time to track and if the tracking arrow was more like the prospecting arrow, but would have less variance the higher C&D you had.
Faith should defiantly have some impact on light/special church functions if/when they are added.
P&P should defiantly be linked to food produce, though a soft cap to purity or scaler applied to glut values or the timer would be sufficient. Also link all clay production to it in some way.
Currently iron production, even at high purities, is trivial something needs to be done about it and it should include S&C.
Currently the really meaningless prof is A&C it adds to very little and is not needed very high for skills, at this point it could be removed with out having a major impact on the game.