Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Counter Play - Losing is fun

[nonsonogiucas]

What is Counter-Play?

Try this video for a brief introduction with examples.

Simply put, Counter-Play states that for a multiplayer game to be enjoyable, most if not all the characters ability should provide some way of countering them.

The reason to this is that no one feels good in finding themselves in a completely hopeless situation. ...but that's realism some might say, life often does that to everyone, puts you in a situation of disadvantage and you just can do nothing about that... well let's be honest, it happens, but it sucks (aka 'not fun').

Counter-Play however does not mean invulnerability against everything. Counter-Play means that one or more logical responses should exist to a given attack / ability. Counter Play generates engagement (you think about how to counter in a specific situation) and satisfaction (when you find your strategy counters that of another player) and that in turn is fun.

As always in my threads this is theory, I haven't had the opportunity to engage in PvP still so feel free to correct me where I'm wrong, but from what I see in the wiki there is a "Parry" move. That could have been a nice example of Counter Play against direct attacks, only it seems not viable since it forces to stay in the 'en garde' stance and that is overall not beneficial. I would like some veterans thought on this one.


Now let's discuss how other mechanics in Salem allow or prevent Good Counter Play. But what is Good Counter Play made of?

Tom Cadwell, at GDC discussing Counter Play in League of Legends indetifies 3 core elements of Counter Play:

a) Possible - self explanatory
b) Clear - it should be implicit or intuitive that action B counters action A
c) Interesting - it should produce variety of strategy and style allowing for epic moments

Does this, for example, apply to Parry?

a) Possible - If you have fencing and a sword. Also not really accessible if you have to give up too much mobility => Poor?
b) Clear - It is very clear: You face an enemy about to trust with a sword, you hit parry... => Excellent
c) Intertesting - Your thoughts on this one... => ?

What if a Parry was possible regardless of stance and "en garde" meant that performing a Parry would be faster / easier to pull. Would that increase the "Possible" aspect a bit?
What if a successfull parry had the effect to stun or greatly imbalance the opponent, giving an advantage to the defender if well timed?

Now what about a Counter Play to Parry? There could be a "Feint" move, where the animation looks like a thrust but then results in a... Feint. Attempting to Parry a Feint would unbalance or stun the defender, so the attacker could mix in couple of Feints here and there to balance out the advantage of a character that is really good at Parry. Variety of strategy in this case means that the thrust and parry mechanics became more Interesting because of a third mechanic that helps Counter Play. And that could be fun.


Feel free to take on where left on Parry mechanic or to discuss any other mechanics in the game from the point of view of Counter Play.

[Feone]

I may be mistaken, as I am by no means experienced in pvp, but overall character responsiveness in this game is fairly slow. I reckon it'd be nearly impossible to parry a move like thrust, just due to the delays involved and the speed of the move. (Parry as in consciously hitting a skill after an opponent uses an ability.)

I reckon in some cases you could predict the move ahead of time, but such refinement in playing probably won't happen much, if at all, in Salem given how PVP happens so little overall.

[Dallane]

I may be mistaken, as I am by no means experienced in pvp, but overall character responsiveness in this game is fairly slow. I reckon it'd be nearly impossible to parry a move like thrust, just due to the delays involved and the speed of the move. (Parry as in consciously hitting a skill after an opponent uses an ability.)

I reckon in some cases you could predict the move ahead of time, but such refinement in playing probably won't happen much, if at all, in Salem given how PVP happens so little overall.

Parry is very easy to hit. You just need to spar with someone you trust

[Kandarim]

and thrust is a very slow move, easy to evade if you're paying attention. I'd guess it's also possible to parry it effectively. I never practiced this though, due to the OP'edness of guard

[vienradzis]

What is Counter-Play?

Try this video for a brief introduction with examples.

Simply put, Counter-Play states that for a multiplayer game to be enjoyable, most if not all the characters ability should provide some way of countering them.

The reason to this is that no one feels good in finding themselves in a completely hopeless situation. ...but that's realism some might say, life often does that to everyone, puts you in a situation of disadvantage and you just can do nothing about that... well let's be honest, it happens, but it sucks (aka 'not fun').

Counter-Play however does not mean invulnerability against everything. Counter-Play means that one or more logical responses should exist to a given attack / ability. Counter Play generates engagement (you think about how to counter in a specific situation) and satisfaction (when you find your strategy counters that of another player) and that in turn is fun.

As always in my threads this is theory, I haven't had the opportunity to engage in PvP still so feel free to correct me where I'm wrong, but from what I see in the wiki there is a "Parry" move. That could have been a nice example of Counter Play against direct attacks, only it seems not viable since it forces to stay in the 'en garde' stance and that is overall not beneficial. I would like some veterans thought on this one.


Now let's discuss how other mechanics in Salem allow or prevent Good Counter Play. But what is Good Counter Play made of?

Tom Cadwell, at GDC discussing Counter Play in League of Legends indetifies 3 core elements of Counter Play:

a) Possible - self explanatory
b) Clear - it should be implicit or intuitive that action B counters action A
c) Interesting - it should produce variety of strategy and style allowing for epic moments

Does this, for example, apply to Parry?

a) Possible - If you have fencing and a sword. Also not really accessible if you have to give up too much mobility => Poor?
b) Clear - It is very clear: You face an enemy about to trust with a sword, you hit parry... => Excellent
c) Intertesting - Your thoughts on this one... => ?

What if a Parry was possible regardless of stance and "en garde" meant that performing a Parry would be faster / easier to pull. Would that increase the "Possible" aspect a bit?
What if a successfull parry had the effect to stun or greatly imbalance the opponent, giving an advantage to the defender if well timed?

Now what about a Counter Play to Parry? There could be a "Feint" move, where the animation looks like a thrust but then results in a... Feint. Attempting to Parry a Feint would unbalance or stun the defender, so the attacker could mix in couple of Feints here and there to balance out the advantage of a character that is really good at Parry. Variety of strategy in this case means that the thrust and parry mechanics became more Interesting because of a third mechanic that helps Counter Play. And that could be fun.


Feel free to take on where left on Parry mechanic or to discuss any other mechanics in the game from the point of view of Counter Play.

Everything you ask is alrdy in game just you need pull your head out of your ass and actualy try the game not post crap in forums

[nonsonogiucas]

Everything you ask is alrdy in game just you need pull your head out of your ass and actualy try the game not post crap in forums

I'm really sorry you felt upset by reading this post, I can assure you it was not a request but rather the incipit of a discussion.

I would encourage everyone who wishes to participate in the discussion to do it either by providing useful information or by further elaborating on that information or someone else's argument.

If you could be so kind as to point out where in my words it looks like I'm asking for the implementation of a specific change in the game rather than discussing a design principle from a high point of view I will rectify that part accordingly.

and thrust is a very slow move, easy to evade if you're paying attention. I'd guess it's also possible to parry it effectively. I never practiced this though, due to the OP'edness of guard

I'm interested in this, does Guard have some kind of drawback compared to not using it? Does it allow some form of Counter Play or it just goes withou saying that if you are in combat you will be using the Guard stance?

Also what about the other moves?

I'm kind of wary of asking about this but, what about Stomp? Someone said it could cause Stun-Lock, is this even true? Does a counter move exist?
If you do not wish to talk about it cause you think it could harm you to tell everyone "the trick" that prevents stun lock (if it even exists) than feel free to totally ignore the subject.

[vienradzis]

If you want discuss combat do it in HoB
If you want discuss game development as such use CuH
If you want someone explane combat to you use Help section

You said as idea than we need counter play to trust. And counterplay to counterplay. We alrdy have both.

Also for future dont give tips how to improve game about part of game you havent tried and dont understand.

You sound like cleayt.

[Kandarim]

and thrust is a very slow move, easy to evade if you're paying attention. I'd guess it's also possible to parry it effectively. I never practiced this though, due to the OP'edness of guard

I'm interested in this, does Guard have some kind of drawback compared to not using it? Does it allow some form of Counter Play or it just goes withou saying that if you are in combat you will be using the Guard stance?

The main drawback of guard is the slower movement speed. After enough training, you'll find you're using run rather than guard against enemies whom you think you can beat with strategy. Guard is for when you expect to take hits (with some training, you're actually able to flick guard on right before getting hit, and flick it off afterwards).

e.g. When fighting bears (before I get to their 1-hit point), I generally resort to run rather than guard. You can take the hits in blood if necessary, and running usually allows you to evade their stun attack by running past them.

[Dallane]

Everything you ask is alrdy in game just you need pull your head out of your ass and actualy try the game not post crap in forums

it was not a request but rather the incipit of a discussion.

You really need to learn the combat system if you want a discussion on how to improve it. Its very clear you don't know how it works from what you have already stated.

[nonsonogiucas]

You really need to learn the combat system if you want a discussion on how to improve it. Its very clear you don't know how it works from what you have already stated.

From wikipedia: "Incipit is a Latin word meaning "it begins". The incipit of a text, such as a poem, song, or book, is the first few words of its opening line."

I never thought I could teach anything to anyone, I just wanted to open a discussion, to start it.

I understand it may seem my sole enjoyment in this kind of threads is writing and having others say "+1" but it really is not and I apologize if I gave you this idea through any part of my writing. I would have loved to hear you veterans discuss Salem mechanic from the point of view of the design principle I introduced, as some did.

I believe you and viendrazis misunderstood my intentions but I take full responsibility for not conveying them more clearly.

I already asked a moderator to move this and the other threads of the "serie" if it actually turns out that a "gameplay design rant" doesn't fit in "Ideas and Innovations".


However, either if the threads gets moved or not, I would beg you, if you so wish, to discuss where I am mistaken in my assumptions or which parts of my argument you feel are altogether invalid and why. Also note that for the sake of time I restricted myself to a single example (thrust vs parry) but I actually opened the discussion to other mechanics for my main purpose was to discuss the Counter Play principle, and not only the Parry mechanic of which, as you pointed out, I know very little. So please, everyone, feel free to discuss the topic regardless of my ignorance.