OODA & You

[Champie]

I have no personal experience utilizing OODA to tackle problems in complex systems, but occasionally over the years since I first became familiar with the idea, I see problems that need solving and wonder "Can these problems be addressed using OODA?"

Here is an article I found this morning.
http://www.govloop.com/profiles/blogs/why-complex-problems-are?id=1154385%3ABlogPost%3A1629750&page=2#comments

Has anyone here worked with OODA on an organizational level, or perhaps implemented it for thier own purposes, or even dabbled in the ideas beyond curious reading?

Do you think this concept is useful in game development? As a community, would we serve the developers better if we were aware of this concept and applied it to our approach to problem solving for Salem?

If OODA is not appropriate for game development, are there other approaches that you might want to share to help guide the community toward providing the most productive feedback possible to the developers?

This thread is intended to provide a place where we can share problem solving techniques and concepts in order to develop a framework for discussing the problems in the complex system that is Salem.

[Killihz]

The OODA loop has been used by the army in ages.

I am an officer, and has had great experiences using it outside the armed forces as well, on an organizational level. I figure most people actually use it on a daily basis to make decisisions, some just without being aware of it.

Being aware of it in a game-developing environment i would never see as a bad thing, however just mere "common sense" is just as applicable, imho.

[Champie]

It has been said that the Ideas & Innovations thread is a place where the developers can find game design suggestions made by the players. This claim is typically made by the moderators when they have to "clean-up" a thread, or it is made by forum vigilantes who seem eager to comment "That's already been said devs said no learn2search."

I think the devs should stay out of the Ideas & Innovations thread completely. It seems to me that the devs would be best served to use this forum (I&I) as an observational tool, not a conversations tool. Ideas posted are less useful as practical changes than they are as insight into the player experience. Therefore, the ideas are meaningful when observed as a collection. With the right kind of analysis and interpretation of the data the devs might glean more about the state of the game than asking questions or commenting directly here.

The devs job isn't to design by committee, or worse, ask for input on some ideas and then do whatever they want anyway. Only the devs know the orientation of their goals and they must know how to gather and analyze data that facilitate their decision making process. Regular people like you and me are not in a position to have game design discussions with the devs unless it is to seek clarity on their decision making process.

The best thing we can do as a community is to ask the devs to let us share our ideas in this thread without their interference. The best we can demand of each other (the community) is to allow that discussion to be as free flowing as possible without artificial barriers or redirection by mods or devs.

If the devs want to improve Salem, they will have to learn how to gather and interpret data in the wild, not under a contrived question and challenge session. Let's face it, if any of us could design our own games we'd be doing it. Let's leave the hard work for the professionals while we do what we do best and play the game and talk about it.

[JohnCarver]

Interesting concept. It does free up time. But sometimes I have questions about how a player specifically sees their idea implemented. As a general rule of thumb though, you won't find me outside the announcement thread as much as you find me in it.

[Champie]

Interesting concept. It does free up time. But sometimes I have questions about how a player specifically sees their idea implemented. As a general rule of thumb though, you won't find me outside the announcement thread as much as you find me in it.

Despite everything that I've said the last couple days, I'm on your side here. If you guys and gals are willing to invest and risk your time, energy, money, dreams into this project then I think you deserve a lot more respect than I have shown. Congratulations on making it this far. As a fellow human being I'd love to see you go "all the way" if that's your goal.

edit to add: I finally realized this after a good friend reminded me that that's what I would want for anyone.

edit again: Also, I accept that anything I say in this thread could be misguided. If so, my apologies, but it is just an idea open to criticism.

[Scilly_guy]

I found with Jorb that sometimes (very rarely) he would comment in I&I, even if it was just a +1, it showed that he was reading the messages, and let us know what he was actually interested in, so I think there is a place for the devs in this thread, and I hope to notice their presence here more than Jorbs. But I agree that they can't be here all the time and do need to let us battle things out a bit. I think once we have some sort of roadmap from MM about their ideas then we will be able to discuss things in a more meaningful way. I do find that sometimes in this forum people come up with massive essays about their idea only for everyone to shoot it down because it is flawed at the basic level, or has been suggested before, or is simply a terrible idea. I would much prefer it if we could share simple ideas and people could give constructive feedback, perhaps by asking for more details, or pointing out why it would be a bad idea, instead of the usual "no thats stupid" etc etc.

Perhaps we should also discuss the types of suggestions we get:
1. Flavour - "Add more animals/plants/crops/recipes" - the addition of something like this seems simple to the person who posts it, ultimately it doesn't add much to the game.
2. Easier - "Add a tool to make lime/boards easier/quicker" - the addition of something that makes something easier to obtain reduces the value of the item you are making, if its easier to get lime then metal decreases in value, as does the value of all crops, a sawmill for mass producing boards reduces the value of everything derived from boards.
3. Obvious/Empty - "Add witchcraft" - suggesting a massive mechanic without any kind of bulk to the suggestion is pointless, yes its a nice thing but how do you envisage it working, even if you just expand the idea a little. "Add broom sticks, they could be like a canoe but can travel over land too."
4. Carebear - "Make the game easy for newbies but hard for people who know how to play" - All too often there is a suggestion about adding some kind of safe zone or timer to keep people safe, or, even worse, they suggest removing permadeath, thats the whole point of the game from which everything derives its value.
5. Missing the point - "I've had this great idea that we should be able to dig up roots and grind them into a paste which can be used to do this that and the other thing and then this will happen and the bear will turn into a unicorn which will leave rainbows behind it which can be used for something and blah blah blah blah blah and then you win the game!" - This is one of those long winded ideas which someone has put a lot of effort into but completely missed the point.
6. Straight forward - "expandable houses would be nice, you could have basements and verandas, perhaps a log store" - Its a simple idea which people can expand on, similar to 1. and 3. but with enough flesh that people can see where you are coming from and potential for mechanics.
7. Essay - There are some really long well thought out ideas that often people don't read all the way through and they get lost and passed over.
8. Simple - "Remove logs from the saw buck." - Sometimes one line says it all, these suggestions can often be considered polish which the developers think is pointless at this stage because everyone knows that its the big exciting things which are fun, but sometimes they can make a big difference, for instance when they added the ability to place a ghost of the item you are carrying.

[nonsonogiucas]

Perhaps we should also discuss the types of suggestions we get:

Forgive me for going slightly off topic while giving this a +1.
It would be really nice if we were able to establish come kind of protocol in defining the "type" of suggestion. It would also make it a lot easier to moderate the discussion... Yes, I'm biased, I don't like reading "You dumb. end of talk." kind of posts mixed with essays... especially the one started by me