Jorb where are you?!

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Re: Jorb where are you?!

Postby Icon » Fri May 09, 2014 11:41 am

Binks wrote:
Mereni wrote:I don't think the gluttony timer or the new inspiration system are bad at all. I just think they need a few tweeks and some extra content.

Gluttony timers are terrible. I will not play this game seriously until they are removed. There is nothing at all that can make me feel differently about this subject. When a game limits my ability to "level up" I want nothing to do with it.



Dat ^

spamming out characters for pvp IS endgame, even with purity foods, now your still handicapped in order to "keep it more even"

Probably has alot to do with why the numbers drop so much every time a new, more throttling system gets added
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Re: Jorb where are you?!

Postby Scilly_guy » Fri May 09, 2014 5:55 pm

The point of perma-death is that you care about you character so you don't just die all the time, if you can easily spam alts for PVP then there is no point in the perma-death aspect, you may as well just play a game without perma-death.

I stand by my suggestion in a different thread that instead of one timer for F&F that there should be a timer on each food group, so you can glutton on different groups. Yes there is still a timer but it makes it much more tactical, meaning you have to have all the food groups instead of just making the same foods all the time.

Proposal 1: Each food group restores 1% every X minutes and food group reductions are appropriately rebalanced.

I enjoy Salem as it is but I can see that for someone who has more time it quickly becomes dull. I play everyday for an hour or too and it keeps me busy, but I'm not a raider. I have two characters, although I only ever really play with one. I was drawn to Seatribes games because of the aspect that you can lose everything, although it was annoying that there was no way to defend your base when you were offline in Haven, in Salem they added braziers. I am now almost completely safe, I have a bell and complete brazier coverage and I don't leave scents. The thing that first drew me into the game is gone, that fear that when I logged on all my stuff might be gone! The issue is braziers, they are too easy, they cost too little and they don't require maintenance. If you had to light braziers and refill them with coal then people would have to do more work to keep their base defended, of course you would only fill and light your braziers if there was a Trial by Fire, so that mechanic would need to be linked.

Proposal 2: Braziers require lighting and refuelling. Trial by Fire is against the zone of lit braziers not against the whole Town claim. Brazier damage, max fuel, and burn speed requires a fine balance. Torch posts do not require refuelling and do not effect brazier strength, they will defend your claim like they do now.

This would probably piss me off, having to keep my braziers refuelled, but then I should have to put in some effort to be completely safe...ish.
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Re: Jorb where are you?!

Postby lachlaan » Fri May 09, 2014 6:08 pm

@ Proposal 2 : If the issue is not being totally safe when online, how about braziers function as they do now while nobody is on claim/offline, perhaps even the way you described with them having to actively be kept lit, or constantly decaying quickly and needing some commodity to be fixed so they don't get disactivated. And on the other hand there could be a mechanic that makes it so your braziers are nerfed when you're on claim. Or even when someone with permissions to the claim is online. Basically if you can fight for yourself, go do that, otherwise you have some defenses that can hold attackers off but not quite send them packing.
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Re: Jorb where are you?!

Postby Mereni » Fri May 09, 2014 6:26 pm

Binks wrote:
Mereni wrote:I don't think the gluttony timer or the new inspiration system are bad at all. I just think they need a few tweeks and some extra content.

Gluttony timers are terrible. I will not play this game seriously until they are removed. There is nothing at all that can make me feel differently about this subject. When a game limits my ability to "level up" I want nothing to do with it.


Well, the old system was crap that made only a few foods even viable for eating. Have you thought of a system that preserves the variety of foods eaten in a session but still allows someone who plays 30 hours a day to advance more quickly than someone who plays a couple hours a day?
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Re: Jorb where are you?!

Postby agentlemanloser » Fri May 09, 2014 8:30 pm

Jorb, Loftar, for what it is worth, I have quite enjoyed Salem, but as many others have pointed out, the major problem is that the game is unfinished. By this I do not mean that certain promised content is absent, but rather that, across the board, the game is offering alpha-stage content at best, certainly compared to, say, the depth and complexity of Haven and Hearth.

And this, I think, is the real root of almost all of the problems with player retention. There are, of course, some problematic issues with the rule set of the game, but prioritizing rule sets before implementing the bulk of the content is like meticulously proofreading a paper’s first draft – changes are meaningless because later content changes and additions will demand further proofreading. I actually like the new gluttony and purity systems, but there it is. Regardless, please consider the following observations and suggestions about three aspects of your game.

World Design: Player Non-Interaction and World Size

As many have observed and as Loftar has complained, player interaction is less that it should be. The new map design was intended partially to correct this, but the mistake is in neither map design or biome distribution but rather in the way in which content interacts with gameplay.

The problem is not that the world is too big, but rather that the light parts of the map are too big initially. The map should have been created with the darkness covering a majority of the map. Initially, players would be forced to settle in very close proximity, thus increasing the parts of the game that make MMOs fun. Then, when the “endgame” stages are reached by players, a push into the darkness becomes possible using the Church content which is now entirely meaningless.

The problem is that you have content that, due to world design, has no function. Is this correctable? I don’t know – you could, of course, with a relatively simple tweak cause the darkness to slowly begin encroaching – but regardless, the map design must reflect the needs of the game.

Gameplay: Player Retention and Discrete Professions/Play Styles

A related problem concerns the ease of a jack-of-all-trades play style. Obviously, you shouldn’t force people to choose professions, but the smart game design provides such a wealth of content that players simply move into one kind of profession, filling a certain niche in the game’s society or economy, and, when a few months later that profession grows boring (though not exhausted, due to content complexity), they move on to other things. Let me give an example.

Since this game is set in a pioneer-themed world, a natural profession choice would be hunter/trapper. But, as it is, any farmer can cover all of the activities related to hunting within a map tile or two of home base. Moreover, there are only a handful of animals to hunt. In short, there is no reason to play (read: experience the game, not create an alt) as a hunter.

However, smarter content design makes this play style possible. For instance, each animal should have multiple varieties/subspecies that increase in value and quality/purity the further one moves from Boston. The northern edge of the map should feature Kodiak bears, for example. (Simple reskins with enhanced stats would have been more than enough. You have a deer; simply slap a horn on it, give it a much more damaging charge, set up a random and rare spawn, and call it a unicorn. Complexity, variety, and fun for thirty minutes of editing.) Moreover, dozens, if not ultimately hundreds, of animal types should be introduced, some drawn from reality and others the Lumberwoods mythology. The more advanced animals could, like in Haven, kill the players, and would require serious skill, stats, and/or planning to hunt. Some might require the player to track them for dozens and dozens of map tiles. Others might require coordinated hunting. (And, of course, each category of beast might require specific learned skills to properly butcher or kill.)

By providing this complexity of content, players could easily sink months into simply hunting and providing rare resources to Boston. Haven already has a rudimentary version of this with creatures like Trolls; it strikes me as silly not to have pursued it here.

I can think of quite literally dozens of possible professional paths and ways to provide complex content to flesh out each path. Even something as presumably simple and grindey as being a woodcutter could be made into an interesting and deep experience, simply by providing incredibly rare trees requiring certain skills, tools, and knowledge to harvest, trees that only grow in certain biomes, trees that migrate and fight back, etc.

Ultimately, players quit because once they have built a base, got some food, and farmed a bit, there is nothing left to do. Providing complex content that fleshes out certain play styles/professional paths neatly avoids this “endgame” problem.

Endgame: Territory Control and Leaderboards

Finally, the dreaded “endgame” (I’m using ironic quotes because no sandbox should be designed to include anything resembling a traditional endgame) stage is usually so dubbed because the game stops providing real goals.

Now, I’m sure many would respond that sandbox games are made so that players can create their own goals, and while this is true in a very abstract sense, the game designers must provide the tools and the framework for such personal goals to be possible.
The previous point about discrete professions addresses this somewhat: clearly, one could make it a personal goal to solo hunt a sasquatch or another dangerous and rare creature, if only to put the trophy head on the wall, or a lumberjack might make it a personal goal to chop down the rare, migratory and rather violent walking sycamore.

But, at the level of social interaction, I feel you missed a simple mechanic early on that could have solved some problems. I’m speaking of arbitrary territory control.

Consider this. A group or town would build territorial claim stakes, “claiming” a few dozen or even a few hundred map tiles, depending on how many they were willing to build. The territory claim wouldn’t work like a personal claim; anyone could walk on into it and do anything they wished – the only difference would be that, like when one enters or leaves Boston, a notification would be given and a set of player-drafted “rules” would be displayed. As long as no one not associated with the group builds in the territory, then the group’s territory would be “secure” and a handy leaderboard would display that the group controls X amount of territory. Clearly, community prestige would be the ultimate goal. If another player builds in the territory, then territory would be insecure and would fall from the board. The leaderboard would also display numbers of poached game, filched fish, outright thefts, etc. This system would provide an incredibly easy-to-implement social interaction game that would exist aside from simple raiding. One group, for example, might easily be able to crush a neighbor, but could they keep their own territory secure? Could they prevent poachers, lumber thieves, etc? As I said, such a system would provide a greater set of options for creating goals. Some might enjoy territorial competition, constantly undermining each other and struggling for board domination or even just regional domination, more than simply fighting all neighbors.

I am not making these suggestions in the hope of you adopting them, mind – had that been my goal I would have posted this in the Ideas section. My goal here is simply to point out that the game’s major problem is a lack of meaningful content designed to encourage either player interaction or unique styles of play. Sadly, the solutions are incredibly easy – even adding deep, profession-related content would largely be an issue of reskinning and number-tweaking, at least initially – but, since your attention has shifted back to Haven, this game will likely never see the level of content required to generate the kind of emergent gameplay you and we have hoped for. Maybe the new Haven will avoid these missteps.
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Re: Jorb where are you?!

Postby Procne » Fri May 09, 2014 8:31 pm

Mereni wrote:
Binks wrote:
Mereni wrote:I don't think the gluttony timer or the new inspiration system are bad at all. I just think they need a few tweeks and some extra content.

Gluttony timers are terrible. I will not play this game seriously until they are removed. There is nothing at all that can make me feel differently about this subject. When a game limits my ability to "level up" I want nothing to do with it.


Well, the old system was crap that made only a few foods even viable for eating. Have you thought of a system that preserves the variety of foods eaten in a session but still allows someone who plays 30 hours a day to advance more quickly than someone who plays a couple hours a day?


I think there were numerous suggestions for this. Even the simple "allow a dish to be gobbled only once per bile gain" achieves that.
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Re: Jorb where are you?!

Postby alloin » Fri May 09, 2014 8:52 pm

paljarro wrote:There is no hard cap not even such time related softcap considering "charred somethings". I have several charred somethings stored with 0:00-0:02 time penalty and 0 penalty to meat or 0% chance for penalty. Also these charred somethings can be used to raise any humor, so with enough of them you can raise a char from 5 humors to 500 (or even unlimited) humors in 1 day. Not to mention you can in theory make very pure turkeys, so also very pure meat shreds.

And where would you store & eat those "charred somethings"?

As far as I know, the current hard cap is the highest value foods - penalty * 40 (which results in a hard cap of +/- 350)
Not to mention the timeframe needed to reach those humours.
jorb wrote:all I see is misplaced machismo and a lot of very cheap talk. ^^

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Re: Jorb where are you?!

Postby neored9 » Sat May 10, 2014 3:19 am

DemonEyes wrote:
neored9 wrote:Well the reason it feels so unrewarding is because it is. Raiding isn't possible and there isn't any late game PVE.

A quick glance at t eh forum shows that raiding IS very possible.. and the simple reluctance by, what seems to be, most players to engage in PVP means that there is a huge gaping hole for something PVE orientated. That the people too scared to step outside their bases may want to invest some time and money in actually achieving.

Not only does this mean a requirement for said 'boss' creatures, but also some significantly tough solo encounters.

But then this would take the game in a totally new direction.

As for the timers, gluttony needs some love in the duration stakes, the rest can stay as it is a superior system. It is possible to calculate a Maximum achievable humour value with the current system a Hard Cap as such, the timer introduces a soft cap based on the amount of time you have played.

fiddling about with current mechanics isn't going to change anyones opinion on the game as I see it.. Salem needs more content, be it pve, pvp, farmville or simcity.. anything will do to prolong the interest of the rapidly dwindling playerbase. New mechanics would be good..

But lets face it.. If all the energy is going on Hafen, I hope Jorbtar can take what they have learned from haven, what they have learned in salem, and produce something fantastic that will satisfy new and old players alike. I hope its not a carbon copy of haven with lovely graphics and the like.. but a merge of the ideals of both games, the promotion of community, the small town based communities of friends, and the opportunity and requirement of stepping outside your walls to actually trade with others without having to be their bum buddy.


You clearly don't know anything about raiding if you think that.
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Re: Jorb where are you?!

Postby Scilly_guy » Sat May 10, 2014 12:12 pm

agentlemanloser wrote:lots


I quite often get bored by posts as long as yours but it was actually quite easy to read and had me nodding along with you. Much more thorough and thought through than my suggestions and observations.
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Re: Jorb where are you?!

Postby hamai » Sun May 11, 2014 1:00 am

I dreamed of Salem without Java, using CryEngine or some engine that are cheaper now. Whenever I met 1 or more players online I felt the game more laggy and clumsy than already is. I think a AAA engine had more chances of delivering a smoother game experience. Without Java the bots would probably be gone too, along with the mods. Everyone would play the same game the way intended by the devs.
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