Ukraine vs Russia

[Claeyt]

So, instead of generating GDP as a proper employee you just waste working time writing words in this (and probably other) forum? Well, then i am about to know what will happen in the medium term...

I'm an owner not an employee.

[Odekva]

I just try to give you some Info from the first hands.
Good luck out there.

I wonder if you would agree with Webster Tarpley's analysis of the situation in Ukraine in this 30 minute interview?

Yes, all the facts that Mr Tarpley points out are the sad reality. Mostly word to word what I've said, but more professionaly structured. Many thanks for this url, I'll send it to my friends in USA.

It would be usefull to everyone who is REALLY consearned in this situation to listen to this interview of an American historian.

[Champie]

I'm an owner not an employee.

As a failed business owner, I have to ask...

Is this forum really worth your time and effort?

I know I am here because I have lost all will to live, but you seem to have options. The Salem community seems like a poor choice for motivated and productive people.

[Snowpig]

I'm an owner not an employee.

As a failed business owner, I have to ask...

Is this forum really worth your time and effort?

I know I am here because I have lost all will to live, but you seem to have options. The Salem community seems like a poor choice for motivated and productive people.

Now re-think the words highlighted....

[Claeyt]

I am a bit lazy about forum wars, I just do not believe that there is much sense in them. But we are talking about my country here, so I am a bit concerned here and appear once more. Just because I DO hope that my other foreign friends would open their eyes just a bit.

Today one of my American friends contacted me and asked - what is happening, so I tried to give him a compressed Info which I have as a man born in Ukraine, as a man living in Russia and as a man who has a lot of friends in both countries and in a lot of cities incl Kiev, Donetsk, Lviv, Odessa, etc. I'll leave it here also, hope it would help some of you with better understanding the situation.

1) Yes, Yanukovich was a bad leader, thief and all is true, but all other possible leaders are the same or even worse. So there is not much perspective.

2) People protested against him, but not they made this revolution 2 weeks ago, it was armed hired bandits/terrorists from national front, they were financed from abroad and in those days in Kiev were a lot of foreign hired armed people fighting and shooting in the unarmed police forces, when special police units were trying to capture them they retreated and peaceful armless protestants were sent by their leaders on special forces, so they were unable to arrest armed terrorists without casualties and they retreated. 

3) Majority from people I know (also some living in Kiev) were demanding Yanukovitch to send army to end this revolution quickly. But since all his money are in USA and Swiss and he was under huge pressure from abroad he decided to retreat and abandon country to armed hired bandits instead of using his legal power to end this madness.

4) Now they have other but same bandits(mafiosi) in power, complete mess, a lot of papers and information destroyed(also police archives on all crime things) and armed people from abroad and western part of Ukraine arrives in all major cities of eastern Ukraine to perform the same power capture.

5) All south-eastern districts of Ukraine are raising Russian flags on Municipalities and organizing referendum among people on the question if people wish to join Russia or become an independent state/country. And this is the Legit way, those bandits from west could also have done their Maidan revolution in this way but they new that they would never get votes so they just used guns.

So as a result, the 99% majority of whom I know are sure that interested groups/companies from Europe + USA organized bandits and terrorist to capture Ukraine and now we are trying to save at lest what we can from them. And this is actually true, not the propaganda from TV, this information comes from people who lives in here who see this with their own eyes.

Yes it is very sad and grim for all of us, our economy is sinking and our brother nation is in mess and all the world shouts that we are the bad guys when with other hand through money and weapons to the rival bandits and uses all possible way's of propaganda. 
And yes, there are Russian army in Crimea, but they were there and are there on legit basis, since we have the right to have there 25 000 soldiers on our military bases, so yes they are keeping all in peace there, thats all. Just to provide the peaceful and legit process of peoples referendum.

And I would be very grateful to Claeyt if he would say here the same what he told me in PM about where is he from and if he knows Russian language. If he would do this, it would explain to others why his thoughts seem so strange to people who really have some Info on what is happening in here.

P.S. When I was last time in USA during the flight from Cleveland to Texas I've read a very disappointing article in one magazine, here it is, size is a bit big, but I made it so that it would be possible to read it.

I was sadly impressed that this propaganda is still running in USA and that it is so miserable... I hope not a single one of you would say(without trolling ofc  ) that such games could be a training tool for soldiers!
Here is this museum http://morskoy-boy.15kop.ru/en/

P.P.S. Since I do not like and belive in forum wars, I doubt that I would argue with any one about this topic, I just try to give you some Info from the first hands.
Good luck out there.

The absurdity of this post is mesmerizing.

Some of you may have noticed that I've been trying to write in short crisp sentences so that our Russian comrades can easily translate them with Google translate. I'm not going to do that for this post.

I do not speak Russian. I am American. I have many, many friends from Ukraine that I have known for 20 years. I have several Russian friends who have fled Russia in the last 20 years for political reasons.

One of my great hopes from this thread is that the Russian Players here start reading and listening to media outside of their country. Russia's media is one of the most corrupt in the world and is basically a very well funded, very modern political tool of Putin.

Odekva is repeating lies that he has heard from the Russian media. I'll deal with them one by one.

1. The protesters in 'The Maiden' were neo-nazis, thugs, bandits and funded by the West.

This is very common to hear on Russian media. The hundreds of thousands of people that participated in the protests were not any of these. Nationalist groups on both the Ukrainian and Russian sides have very loud voices. The Ukrainian Nationalist groups are not Nazi's they are not even right wing, they are simply Nationalist groups very similar to the 'Wolves' and other Russian Nationalist groups in Crimea now.

Unlike in Russia the Ukrainian Nationalist groups are not in power. They are not controlling members of the new government and they were not members of the 'Orange Revolution' government when Russia accused that Ukrainian government of being Nazi's and thugs.

Russian media has being saying that Ukrainian Nationalist groups are attacking Russian speaking people in the East. This is absolutely false. They have been relatively calm and are calling on their members to join the Army with the Draft call up.

2. Odevka is right about Yanukovich. He is a monster. Documents and the new government's treasury appointees are finding out quickly that Yanukovich and his supporting Oligarchs shoveled upwards of 70 billion dollars from the Ukrainian government into bank accounts in Switzerland, Austria and Cyprus. He was absolutely corrupt and this is one of the reasons that the maiden protest happened. He is the one that order the Internal Police to go to live ammo when they couldn't clear the square. Over 200 people are still missing after being in police custody before the events at the end of February. He's now being charged in the Hague for crimes against humanity.

The protesters and new government do have their own Oligarchic supporters including Yulia Tymoshenko. She and the others became extremely rich after the soviets left off of shady business deals and abuse of state property auctions. This is why she is not universally supported by the protesters. She and the other oligarchs are bad in a sort of seedy business way but they are not even close to Yanukovich's oligarch supporters.

This can be viewed as one set of Oligarchs against another set of Oligarchs but that view is wrong. The people of Ukraine have driven this to where it is. The Maiden protesters have consistently gone against the wish of their supporting Oligarchs. The current government is proof of that. The Oligarchs have been left playing second fiddle to the people's choice generally.

3. Russians in the East are asking Russia to occupy them.

This is another lie from the Russian media. The break down of the 3 eastern provinces that are Russian National and Russian Language majorities work out to 60% Russian, 28% Ukrainian and 12% Tartar for Crimea and 55% Rusian, 45% Ukrainian for the other two. The other provinces can be broken down into two majority population categories. Ukrainian National-Ukrainian as first language and Ukrainian National-Russian first language. Generally the Russian speaking Ukrainians wanted to keep strong ties to Russia and the Ukrainian speakers wanted to move towards the EU. Only the 3 provinces with Russian National-Russian first language majorities are protesting the new government. Only Crimea has a majority that want to leave Ukraine. The rest of the country is quickly aligning against the Russian invasion even if they think the new government isn't that great.

If Putin stays in Crimea or supports their hurried annexation vote to join Russia he will face strong sanctions, expulsion from the G8 and other trade organizations and a severe economic decline in Russia. If he chooses to invade Eastern Ukraine he will face a Russian economic collapse, full gas and oil sanctions and everything else the EU and the U.S. can think of. Ukraine will cut off the natural gas pipelines to the EU and we'll probably enter another world wide recession. He can not successfully occupy the full country. Ukraine is smaller but it still has 44 million people and an army in the 400-500,000 range after this call up.

Putin ordered the Eastern Ukrainian border forces back to base today which means he probably isn't going to invade Eastern Ukraine.

4. The vast majority of people in Ukraine want to remain whole and want to join the EU. They do not want to join Russia. The Russian media is lying to it's people when it says Russia and Yanukovich have the support of the majority of Ukrainians. They do not. It's not even close.

5. The new government came into power after the peace accord Yanukovich signed with the protest leaders. The parliament held a second 'no-confidence' vote after the Berkut Police fired on protesters. Yanukovich's own party, 'The Party of Regions' abandoned him. The interior minister and many high government officials fled the country after the moderate 'Party of Region' members of parliament ended the government. Yanukovich himself fled to the Russian border after the new government received hundreds of thousands of documents that government officials were trying to destroy showing the vast corruption of his government.

The regional Russian National-Russian Language protesters that have taken over provincial buildings are not elected in any way. They have simply taken the buildings and declared themselves the government. Only in Crimea with Russian Army backing have they been able to actually control the province.

What this really comes down to is that Yanukovich has been proven massively corrupt by these 'Maiden' protests. He was a puppet of Putin and Putin is mad that he didn't crack down on the protests earlier. He did not have the support of the Ukrainian Army or local police. He only had the Internal Police force which was hand picked. They failed him and I personally think that Putin asked him to not do it before the Olympics. The new government is legitimate but it does not represent the whole of Ukraine because the 'Party of Regions' party leaders all fled out of country and had their Swiss bank accounts frozen. National elections have been scheduled for May to form a new government that more represents all of the country.

I'm fine with you posting our PM's Odevka. I basically said the same thing as here.

[Cawalox]

Greetings!

Today we have new war.
Russian came in with forces to Ukraine .
Announced mobilization .
I have 4 hours to take last bottle of whisky and begin to drink.
Pray for Ukraine.
Good luck people of Salem!
You are the best community!

Brego you wanted this. Remember? Let the people choose whose **** they want to suck. Let people in Crimea suck Russian **** and you guys on the west of Ukraine suck US ****.

[Odekva]

I do not speak Russian.

Sorry man, but without knowing Russian and Ukranian language it is simply impossible to have the full picture of situation. You can see and hear only what is translated and shown to you by mass media, but it is definatly not enough to back such a strong position as you try to show us here.

[Claeyt]

I do not speak Russian.

Sorry man, but without knowing Russian and Ukranian language it is simply impossible to have the full picture of situation. You can see and hear only what is translated and shown to you by mass media, but it is definatly not enough to back such a strong position as you try to show us here.

Well that makes no sense. My Ukrainian friends translate for me, that's actually their job to translate Russian newspapers for American news. The English language Russian and Ukrainian papers are good enough. Google translates the other pages okay as well.

[Odekva]

I do not speak Russian.

Sorry man, but without knowing Russian and Ukranian language it is simply impossible to have the full picture of situation. You can see and hear only what is translated and shown to you by mass media, but it is definatly not enough to back such a strong position as you try to show us here.

Well that makes now sense. My Ukrainian friends translate for me, that's actually their job to translate Russian newspapers for American news. The English language Russian and Ukrainian papers are good enough. Google translates the other pages okay as well.

And this also makes sense now. All Russian people know - Never, NEVER read russian newspapers.

But we'v talked enough I think, rest is for each one to decide on their own.

[Claeyt]

And this also makes sense now. All Russian people know - Never, NEVER read russian newspapers.

But we'v talked enough I think, rest is for each one to decide on their own.

Are Russians really that insulated from the world outside Russia? Do they really believe the lies told to them? You must realize that Putin is lying to you, right?

...but fine let the world decide.