Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Ask and answer any and all questions pertaining to Salem's game-play.

Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Postby Hans_Lemurson » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:01 pm

Closed Loop Farm
I've been doing some pondering and arithmetic in my head thinking about the following question:
What would it take to create a "Closed Loop Farm"?
A "Closed Loop Farm" is one which can remain in continual operation without any external inputs. Everything it uses it produces itself and no non-renewable resources are consumed. In short, this is "permaculture". Some allowances must be made for the use of stone and metal in the initial setup to create the infrastructure, but it is important that these resources not be consumed. Similarly, hunting and foraging are acceptable for obtaining initial materials and plant samples, but the end goal is that the only things you use are those which you have grown on your own land.

Basic Currency
And this brings us to the fundamental calculations for how the "cost" of items, and how to balance production and consumption of the fundamental driving resource: Humus. Humus humus humus. In a Closed-Loop farm, "Humus" is the currency for all things. Fields cost Humus, gardening pots guzzle Humus, your only abundant fertilizer will be Humus, and thanks to the miracle of Forestry, even WOOD can be expressed in terms of Humus. You like humus right?

Humus Production
It is clear that to do anything valuable or interesting, Humus will be required in VAST QUANTITIES. This leads to the most important question that must be answered: What is the most efficient way to produce large quantities of Humus? (I will do some rounding and estimations here, but will generally stick to the lower estimates of a given range.)

Sources: Due to the restrictions of this challenge, there are only 3 sources of Humus: Trees, Potted Plants, and Field Crops.

Trees: Trees are a time-consuming, labor-intensive low-yield source of Humus. You would be a fool to fill your compost bind with woodchips. However, for the sake of completeness, I will give a brief analysis:

Any Tree:
-Yield: 66 Humus
A felled tree yields 60 Wood Blocks, and destroying the stump gives another 6 blocks (sometimes 5, but 6 is more convenient). 66 Wood blocks = 132 Woodchips = 66 Humus.
-Cost: 6 Humus
Assuming your proficiencies are high enough to have at least a 50% success-rate from planting cuttings (so that tree farming is sustainable), it will take roughly 2 pots per tree, which is a total cost of 6 Humus. It also takes a long-ass time to "Harvest" a tree; Fell it, Chop it, Chip it.
-Profit: 60 Humus
-Time: 10 Days
3 days to sprout the saplings, 7 days to grow the tree.
Rate: 6 Humus per Day per tree (and the dedication of 2 pots)
This means, interestingly enough, that you can have a Tree-Only farm, with nothing else providing your Humus, just diverting about 10% of your lumber production to provide sustainable humus. Depending on the rate at which cuttings grow back on trees, you can have a sustainable tree farm with less than 50% sapling success. It will just take 3 pots per tree instead of 2, raising the Humus-cost to 9.

Potted Plants: I will assume that you have the indispensable skill Horticulture, which gives you a profit of 2 plants per pot, instead of just one. Even with that nearly all pot-able plants give just 1 humus per unit, which isn't enough humus to refill the pot and replant it, never mind the need to make a profit. All the plants except...

Baby Bears: The tiny pumpkin that cares!
-Yield: 5.2 Humus
2 Baby bears when sliced yield 4 pumpkin flesh and 12 seeds.
Update: Unsliced Baby Bears also give 2.6 humus each, so slicing is not necessary.
-Cost: 3 Humus
-Profit: 2.2 Humus
-Time: 3 Days
Rate: 0.7 Humus per Day per pot
For Pot-Only farming, for every 2 pots you have growing regular crops, you will need 3 growing Baby Bears to provide the Humus. This means that only 40% of your pots will be "Productive", the remaining 60% needing to be dedicated to Humus production. Not terribly efficient, but somewhat less hassle than Woodchips.

Field Crops: These are where it becomes practical and relatively hands-off to produce large quantities of Humus. Not all crops are created equal though. For my calculations, I am going to assume that through a combination of your Stocks&Cultivars bonus, and the use of 1 Humus for fertilizer to boost the plenty (will be factored into total cost), the pessimistic average Plenty value will be 125%: 15 from the humus, 10 from S&C. Actual values may be higher than this. Although some crops may yield an increased profit from a 2nd (or even a 3rd Humus), for the sake of uniformity, I will stick to just one.

Cereal: I have seen comments that this is a good Humus source for when you go large scale. Let's do the math!
-Yield: 10 Humus
125% plenty = 125 seeds. 25 Are used to replant, and so 100 go into the Compost Bin for 10 Humus.
-Cost: 3 Humus
2 to prepare the field, 1 as fertilizer. Woodchip cost is ignored as it is negligible and well below the margin of error.
-Profit: 7 Humus
-Time: 3 Days
Rate: 2.3 Humus per Day per Field.
4 fields (yielding 13.3 humus per day) will exceed the production capacity of a single Compost Bin (12 per day).
Update: Although the humus yield is low, Cereal is the best choice for high purity compost, which is much more valuable than bulk stuff. Also, Hay is apparently quite valuable, potentially outweighing the value of humus produced.

Corn: The yields are terrible, but I include this here for the sake of completeness.
-Yield: 3.7 Humus
125% plenty = 62 seeds. With 25 used for replanting, leaving 37 left to make 3.7 Humus.
-Cost: 3 Humus
The yield from corn is so low, that the +15% plenty from 1 humus ferilizer gives only raises the yield by 0.7 Humus, resulting in a net loss in its application.
-Profit: 0.7 Humus
If no fertilizer were applied, the profit would be 1 Humus. Still pathetically low.
-Time: 4 Days
The longer growing time hurts Corn even further.
Rate: 0.17 Humus per Day per Field
The 0.25 per day you'd get without the wasteful fertilizing is still pathetic. Would not recommend.

Cotton: I've never tried composting cotton (fresh or cleaned), so I will calculate based on composting its seeds only. Will update if I learn differently.
-Yield: 3.7 Humus
62 seeds minus 25 for replanting = 37
-Cost: 3 Humus
Just like corn, fertilizer is wasted.
-Profit: 0.7 Humus
-Time: 4 Days
Rate: 0.17 Humus per Day per Field
With seeds only, cotton works out to be just as bad as corn, except that you can make cloth. Terrible humus source.

Cabbage: Its seeds take a while to dry, but I will assume that there are seeds in stockpile allowing for immediate replanting and composting of extra.
-Yield:16.3 Humus
125% = 5 heads which are split into 6 leaves which give 0.5 humus each. 30 leaves * 0.5 Humus = 15 Humus. 13 excess seeds are left after planting which can be composted.
-Cost: 3 Humus
-Profit: 13.3 Humus
A second humus as fertilizer would give a slight profit if it produced an extra 3 leaves instead of only +2.
-Time: 3 days
Rate: 4.4 Humus per Field per Day
This is nearly DOUBLE the humus profit than you get with Cereal. If you're using Cereal for humus, you're a chump. 3 fields of cabbage will exceed the production capacity of 1 Compost bin. 1 bin per 2 fields recommended. Cabbage with 2 fertilizers will exceed even that capacity, which might not be worth it for small profit.

Pumpkins Grows slow, but that serves to reduce its effective humus cost.
-Yield: 35 Humus :shock:
125% plenty = 5 pumpkins. Each pumpkin gives 6 pumpkin flesh and 15 seeds. Total of 30 flesh and 75 seeds, 25 of which are replanted. Each pumpkin flesh gives 1 Humus, and the 50 seeds give 5 more. 35 Humus.
Update: Pumpkins can be placed directly in the compost without slicing, and yield the same amount of Humus. Slicing is only necessary for replanting, which reduces the overall bother somewhat of harvesting.
-Cost: 3 Humus
-Profit: 32 Humus
Could actually profitably take a 2nd and 3rd fertilization. If fertilization pushes it past a 25% increment, then you get an extra pumpkin. No matter how deficient in flesh that pumpkin is, it still gives 15 seeds, for a guaranteed 1.5 Humus. The point at which fertilization is no longer profitable will depend heavily on whether it nets you an additional pumpkin or not, but in terms of just the flesh, anything below +5% plenty is wasted.
-Time: 6 days
That's kind of a long time, but the yield more than makes up for it.
Rate: 5.4 per Field per Day 8-)
This is the best Humus production rate of any of the crops, hands down. Pumpkin flesh is produced in similar quantities to Cabbage leaves, has double the potency, but takes twice the time, balancing out. However, the pumpkin seeds boost pumpkin's overall yield by 25% compared to cabbage, and the fact that all costs are effectively halved by its less frequent need for field prepping helps too. Pumpkins are by far the most effective farmable source of Humus in the game. Given their large but infrequent (a bin processes a full input in 4 days) but large yields (2 fields fills 3 bins), to ensure smooth production of humus with a minimum of Bins, you will either need to stagger the harvest times of your pumpkins or hold some in reserve to top-up bins that were previously full.

Pumkin2Win:
The results are clear. For both Potted Plants and Field Crops, the Pumpkin is the winner for producing large quantities for compostable material.

Other Considerations:
I ignored a few complications in my prior calculations:
Hay: I didn't mention that Cereal produces Hay, which is worth another +2 compost. This is because even with that boost, cereal still lags behind Cabbage and Pumpkins in productivity, but most importantly it's too valuable to get chucked in a bin and rot.
Also Hay-related is that an alternate source of Hay to growing cereal is growing Autumn grass in pots. However, 5 pots will yield just 2 Hay and cost 15 Humus to produce. Growing a field of Cereal will take only a little bit longer, cost less Humus to plant, and yield a useful product. Don't bother potting grass.
Charcoal: Charcoal is a renewable resource too! If I even bothered mentioning Trees as a source of Humus, but I didn't talk about putting them to proper use as charcoal. Shame!
It's because I was lazy and you probably didn't want to read a re-analysis of the humus yields with the application of Charcoal. I'll just give a rough estimate that using 3 Charcoal instead of 1 Humus for fertilizer will raise your Humus rates by about 50%. Pumpkins still win. The "Humus Cost" of charcoal is fairly low, around 0.05 Humus per piece. (1 tree gives a minimum of 120 charcoal and costs 6 humus to sprout. You do the math.)
Turkey poop!Yes it's a source of compost, but I don't think you'll make any profit off of feeding turkeys and composting their poop. It does allow for meat-production in the "Closed Loop Farm", which is handy, but not relevant to the production of Humus. (unless you drop turkey cuts into the bin, but I still don't think it's worthwhile or even profitable)
Mining! Yes, it's something which is "harvested from your own land", but it's technically not renewable, and most importantly: you can't make Humus from it! Dross won't help your humus production one whit. You can however inefficiently smelt high-purity Iron using locally grown, organic, sustainably harvested charcoal (ya damn hippy), and use this as the source of your nails, but no iron products get regularly consumed by farming, so it's not really relevant.
I have a Lime quarry on my property! Ok, that is a locally produced resource, but while abundant, it's not infinite. Besides, do you really think it's worthwhile to convert Lime into Humus? Sure you can get a good conversion rate by boosting pumpkins (1st lime gives about +10 Humus), but isn't Lime best used for smelting bulk Iron to defend your compound? I suppose if you've walled-in your quarry then you can use your Lime however you please, but not everybody has that luxury. Anyways, I digress.
My S&C level gives me WAY better yields than that paltry 10 or 25% you're calculating with! My estimates were based on pessimism. Pessimism is reliable. If you get higher crop yields than what I calculated, then good for you! You'll need more compost bins, the low-value crops will be proportionally more effective, and Pumpkins will STILL be top dog. Grow Pumpkins. PUUUMPKIIIINS!!!

TL;DR:
Pumpkins are the best crop for making large quantities Humus.
Last edited by Hans_Lemurson on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Low FPS? Love Pixels? Try my new graphics pack! It's Pixelicious. :)
Compost Bin purity formula: Now doing science to earthworms
User avatar
Hans_Lemurson
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:04 am

Re: Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Postby vonsch » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:14 pm

Love the !science! Thanks for the analysis.
vonsch
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:24 am

Re: Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Postby Yourgrandmother » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:31 pm

Good thread.

Some things to take into account.

- Purity pythons (early mid-game your pumpkin seeds will be falling behind cereal)
- Any serious farmer will tell you how much fun slicing hundreds of pumpkin per day is...
- If you put pumpkin straight in that means you don't get seeds back which means you need to divert more crops to replanting
- Space for storage for mass composts is an issue and requires planning in advance on where your mass composts will go and what kind of access routes they'll have to fields you plan to spam
Yourgrandmother
 
Posts: 548
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:34 am

Re: Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Postby jorb » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:51 pm

Some phlegm expended in the processes, so the profit isn't quite that straight up, but I guess its marignal. I've also wondered what the effects of earthworms and pythons yielding +2 and +10 respectively when fed to turkeys would be if you feed the resulting turkeys back to the composts.
User avatar
jorb
 
Posts: 940
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Postby Potjeh » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:25 pm

I'd still go with cereal, hay is just indispensable if you want higher tier crops.
Potjeh
 
Posts: 2485
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:26 pm

Re: Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Postby Yourgrandmother » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:51 pm

jorb wrote:Some phlegm expended in the processes, so the profit isn't quite that straight up, but I guess its marignal. I've also wondered what the effects of earthworms and pythons yielding +2 and +10 respectively when fed to turkeys would be if you feed the resulting turkeys back to the composts.


Phlegm becomes a non issue in a developed town / hermit base. Once you have good colewort it is no longer a factor.

Again in a town you are dealing with mass quantities of fields and composts and the entire process of feeding coops to feed composts just increases the workload. When you tend to 200-300 fields and over a hundred composts the most simplistic and fastest method to fuel composts is the best.

Time = Money
Yourgrandmother
 
Posts: 548
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:34 am

Re: Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Postby Kandarim » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:54 pm

Hans_Lemurson wrote:I have a Lime quarry on my property! Ok, that is a locally produced resource, but while abundant, it's not infinite. Besides, do you really think it's worthwhile to convert Lime into Humus? Sure you can get a good conversion rate by boosting pumpkins (1st lime gives about +10 Humus), but isn't Lime best used for smelting bulk Iron to defend your compound? I suppose if you've walled-in your quarry then you can use your Lime however you please, but not everybody has that luxury. Anyways, I digress.


I thought by now everyone knew lime IS infinite? (or at least, can be)

And, as Potjeh pointed out, you missed the fact that hay is very important.

One other point: purity. It's easy as pie to get 100% cereal seeds in a pretty short time, while the same doesn't go for cabbage/pumpkin. Perfect cereal seeds can pretty easily be bought in player stores, and pretty much everyone has access to it. Not so much with cabbage/pumpkin.
I have neither the crayons nor the time to explain it to you.
JC wrote:I'm not fully committed to being wrong on that yet.
User avatar
Kandarim
Customer
 
Posts: 5321
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:18 pm

Re: Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Postby qbradq » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:54 am

Great study! Thank you! I've been growing pumpkins for a while, now I've got an excuse to grow more :D

Kandarim wrote:
Hans_Lemurson wrote:I thought by now everyone knew lime IS infinite? (or at least, can be)


What exactly do you mean by this? Are you talking about using lime alts, or is there some mechanic I don't know about?
qbradq
 
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:27 am

Re: Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Postby Siobhan » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:12 am

using minimum hummus (and once fields are set up) on 50% fields

how many fields per bin ?

i think it was 12 pots per bin.
Siobhan
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:42 am

Re: Humus Farming: Calculations for a "Closed Loop Farm"

Postby Hans_Lemurson » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:36 am

vonsch wrote:Love the !science! Thanks for the analysis.

Technically no science was done since this was all theory-crafting with no actual testing. ;)
But you're welcome.
Yourgrandmother wrote:Good thread.

Some things to take into account.

[1]- Purity pythons (early mid-game your pumpkin seeds will be falling behind cereal)
[2]- Any serious farmer will tell you how much fun slicing hundreds of pumpkin per day is...
[3]- If you put pumpkin straight in that means you don't get seeds back which means you need to divert more crops to replanting
[4]- Space for storage for mass composts is an issue and requires planning in advance on where your mass composts will go and what kind of access routes they'll have to fields you plan to spam

1.Purity Pythons don't give more humus, do they? Or are you referring to another valuable product which can be achieved by farming cereal rather than something else?
2.True enough, but threshing takes time too. However, one critical difference between Cereal and Pumpkins is that when prepped for the composter, Cereal contracts in your inventory, while pumpkins EXPAND. Also, you can feed stacks of cereal in 100 at a time, while pumpkin flesh has to go in piece-by-piece. Shift-right clicking can help here, but it's no replacement for the mass-dumping that you get from cereal.
3. Hmm...I hadn't considered putting whole pumpkins in. I'll need to check how much Humus that gives. Only 2 pumpkins need to be sliced to replant, but that's still a fair amount of slicing.
4.Good point! I hadn't given any thought to what the layout would look like for a mass-composting farm. I had been vaguely assuming that you'd have composters distributed among the fields for the easy drop-off of goods. However, although this would make filling of the composters simple, harvesting them would be rather MORE complicated, requiring many trips out to the fields and back to fill up your gardening pots.

jorb wrote:Some phlegm expended in the processes, so the profit isn't quite that straight up, but I guess its marignal. I've also wondered what the effects of earthworms and pythons yielding +2 and +10 respectively when fed to turkeys would be if you feed the resulting turkeys back to the composts.

Well, if you tell me the rates of Earthworm and Python production in compost, the maturation-time of eggs/poults, and the rate at which Turkeys eat food, and their poop production rate, then I can give you your answer! That information will also answer the "Cannibal Coop" question of "Can I sustainably feed Turkeys to each other?". In fact, the the only differences between cannibal turkeys and turkeys that "make their own worms" is the rate at which worms spawn in the compost (the meat-to-worms conversion factor) and the fact that you can compost poo, but can't make turkeys eat ****.

Potjeh wrote:I'd still go with cereal, hay is just indispensable if you want higher tier crops.

Hmm...another point to the "Hay is really valuable" argument for Cereal cultivation.

Yourgrandmother wrote:
jorb wrote:Some phlegm expended in the processes, so the profit isn't quite that straight up, but I guess its marignal. I've also wondered what the effects of earthworms and pythons yielding +2 and +10 respectively when fed to turkeys would be if you feed the resulting turkeys back to the composts.


Phlegm becomes a non issue in a developed town / hermit base. Once you have good colewort it is no longer a factor.

Again in a town you are dealing with mass quantities of fields and composts and the entire process of feeding coops to feed composts just increases the workload. When you tend to 200-300 fields and over a hundred composts the most simplistic and fastest method to fuel composts is the best.

Time = Money

Hmm...yes, the fundamental limiting factor is "How long does this take?". Although you can have a potentially unlimited number of fields, there is only one of YOU. Although I touched on this in the "Woodchip Farm" section, I neglected to factor it in for how bothersome it might be to transfer the bounty of the fields into compost bins. However, one thing to keep in mind for pumpkins is that you only have to process them half as often due to their long grow-time.

Also a question about your colewort comment: Are you eating the colewart directly, or as an ingredient in prepared food?

Kandarim wrote:I thought by now everyone knew lime IS infinite? (or at least, can be)

And, as Potjeh pointed out, you missed the fact that hay is very important.

One other point: purity. It's easy as pie to get 100% cereal seeds in a pretty short time, while the same doesn't go for cabbage/pumpkin. Perfect cereal seeds can pretty easily be bought in player stores, and pretty much everyone has access to it. Not so much with cabbage/pumpkin.


Yes, you can dig down the edges of a quarry to keep working at it, but eventually you're going to run into things you can't or don't want to dig, and the massive hole will begin to have an effect on your property. However, this will take a fairly long amount of time to happen. I don't have any numbers for this and I decided not to calculate it.

Yeah, Hay is looking to be important enough that a farm could be more accurately modelled as a "Hay Growing Enterprise" with the extra Humus as a byproduct.

As for the purities achieved, my understanding was that for Pumpkins at least, rather than trying to bootstrap them by growing them from base purity seeds, you could grow baby-bears in pots filled with high purity cereal-derived humus to get them half-way to maximum before planting in the field. However, this ends up just agreeing with what you said, that producing valuable high-purity Humus is best done with Cereal rather than pumpkins or cabbage.

In fact, that's actually a VERY valuable point. Humus, for the most part, is not valuable in quantity but rather in quality. Compost-Bins with high-purity feedstock not only support the growing of high-quality potted plants, but also provide high-grade earthworm pythons for raising proficiencies.

So a good summary would be:
-If you want to produce as much humus as possible on a small amount of farmland, you should grow pumpkins.
-If you want to do something USEFUL, you should grow Cereal instead.
Low FPS? Love Pixels? Try my new graphics pack! It's Pixelicious. :)
Compost Bin purity formula: Now doing science to earthworms
User avatar
Hans_Lemurson
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:04 am

Next

Return to Help!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 247 guests