Salem

I started playing this game in hopes of finding an enjoyable sandbox mmo. Sadly I was very dissapointed in what I saw. This game is a niche inside a niche product, and the developers idea of a sandbox is greatly warped in my view.
My first problem is gluttony mode. How is this a sandbox concept, in any way realistic or even enjoyable ? This feature forces a player into a narrow tunnel of food grind and skill progression focused primarily on getting better food to eat..... how is this sandbox? Realism is usually a part of sandboxy games....only some kind of obese mental patient could think eating food non stop will make you stronger or smarter.....closer to heart attack maybe, but definitely not fit. Can anyone justify why this feature is necessary at all or enjoyable in the least ?

My second problem is with inspirational . This is almost as backwards of an idea as gluttony mode. First you get stronger from eating, and now you are gaining skill by admiring straw dolls and seasonal art. Point of a sandbox game is gaining skills by doing things you choose to focus on and you aren't restricted in what you should be doing. Inspirationals are are a pointless time sink. As a sandbox player I want to gain skill while doing worthwhile things instead of grinding and stuffing my face in order to gain enough sat and skill to do worthwhile things which in turn I only do to perform more grind and gluttony etc.. It's a vicious circle. The developers are clueless in my view.

I have great respect for sandbox gamers, but I think because of the lack of decent games that cater to the sandbox genre the expectations and standards have been lowered way too far. This game in it's current state is a sad excuse for a game, not to mention a sandbox game.

Gorukha wrote:I started playing this game in hopes of finding an enjoyable sandbox mmo. Sadly I was very dissapointed in what I saw. This game is a niche inside a niche product, and the developers idea of a sandbox is greatly warped in my view.
My first problem is gluttony mode. How is this a sandbox concept, in any way realistic or even enjoyable ? This feature forces a player into a narrow tunnel of food grind and skill progression focused primarily on getting better food to eat..... how is this sandbox? Realism is usually a part of sandboxy games....only some kind of obese mental patient could think eating food non stop will make you stronger or smarter.....closer to heart attack maybe, but definitely not fit. Can anyone justify why this feature is necessary at all or enjoyable in the least ?

My second problem is with inspirational . This is almost as backwards of an idea as gluttony mode. First you get stronger from eating, and now you are gaining skill by admiring straw dolls and seasonal art. Point of a sandbox game is gaining skills by doing things you choose to focus on and you aren't restricted in what you should be doing. Inspirationals are are a pointless time sink. As a sandbox player I want to gain skill while doing worthwhile things instead of grinding and stuffing my face in order to gain enough sat and skill to do worthwhile things which in turn I only do to perform more grind and gluttony etc.. It's a vicious circle. The developers are clueless in my view.

I have great respect for sandbox gamers, but I think because of the lack of decent games that cater to the sandbox genre the expectations and standards have been lowered way too far. This game in it's current state is a sad excuse for a game, not to mention a sandbox game.

1st your definition of sandbox is wrong. This is in fact a sandbox game.

The answer to your concerns is botting is ALOT harder to do this way. You also need to see how HnH worked and how they improved the systems to make the need for bots non essential.

Glutton mode: If this was a "normal" sandbox as you are thinking then you need to perform actions to get stronger. Say cutting down a tree would get your phlegm higher. Ok i make a bot to do that for me. Sure you could make a bot to forage for you in this system, but it wouldn't be that efficient with how the terrain is unless you are the tits at making bots. You could make a glutton bot but that's not game breaking.

Inspirationals: Again what you are asking for is to be abused by bots.

Both of these system also drive the economy of the game. Both are consumed and needed by every player. With purity of the items you have another game to play with improving it.

First off, what you said has little to do with a game being a sandbox. That is merely your own perception of what some features of a sandbox should be like.

Yes, a sandbox can have a realistic theme... or not. If you haven't noticed, it has a rather special 15th-17th(?) century theme: witchcraft, churches, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluttony, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism

As for inspirationals. I agree that the common approach in a sandbox game is that for example cutting down a tree gives you "woodcutting" skill. But just because Salem has a different, more special approach does not make it any less of a sandbox. It is labeled "a crafting MMO" and you get skills by crafting inspirationals. Not to mention it's much harder to bot a system like this.

Gorukha wrote:First you get stronger from eating, and now you are gaining skill by admiring straw dolls and seasonal art. Point of a sandbox game is gaining skills by doing things you choose to focus on and you aren't restricted in what you should be doing.

First games that come to my mind after reading that were Wurm and Xsyon

As a sandbox player I want to gain skill while doing worthwhile things instead of grinding

And here's where I laughed. If anything, most sandbox games are about repeatedly performing one action for hours to increase some skills and throw away products.

and stuffing my face in order to gain enough sat and skill to do worthwhile things which in turn I only do to perform more grind and gluttony etc.. It's a vicious circle. The developers are clueless in my view.

No, you don't do them for that only. There are plenty of recipes and buildings which give you new possibilities instead of bloating your stats. Sure, food is all about humours and inspirationals about skills. But smithing, tailoring, leatherworking, masonry give / unlock new useful recipes.

Also, as a sandbox Salem doesn't have give you any specific goal, so once you have everything in game then indeed the only things left are eating, grinding skills and building more stuff until you get bored. Oh and killing others

I have great respect for sandbox gamers, but I think because of the lack of decent games that cater to the sandbox genre the expectations and standards have been lowered way too far. This game in it's current state is a sad excuse for a game, not to mention a sandbox game.

Maybe you should start with stating your definition of a sandbox game and listing some games which you consider great sandbox examples (here comes minecraft -_-). Because for me Salem is too sandboxish.

Procne's right, a sandbox game is really never ending. The goals are for yourself to create.

and stuffing my face in order to gain enough sat and skill to do worthwhile things which in turn I only do to perform more grind and gluttony etc.. It's a vicious circle. The developers are clueless in my view.

and remember this is still BETA. More and more contents will still come in the future.

Ok I see alot of fanboy blinders on, kinda expected since most people who post here are hardcore fans and everyone else doesn't bother, but I'm a stubborn goat.

Firstly I know grind comes with the territory , however my point was there is only one way of doing things in this game. How is that sandbox ? Getting stats through one lame and laughable process ? Making the inspirations is the key to this game, how is that freedom to do whatever you want ? Sandbox ? This game ? NO

The good old excuse "this is just beta". I have been around since UO and I have heard that excuse for every failed mmo from the loyal fans. Next excuse is going to be "The game has just released of course it's flawed" etc. The release of this game is in the 4th quarter of this year right ? That excuse isn't going to fly.

One day people will realize that it is they that failed and not the developers. Every failed sanbox mmo to date has been filled with people who were hardcore fans. They were not able to think critically about their games and those were the people the developers listened to. The devs already think they are the end all of creativity since they are making a game and we are just sitting on the sidelines waiting to play it. All they need is a bit of cheerleading from fanboys and they never realise how horribly flawed their games are. This seems to be the case here, because someone should have hit em on the head with some honesty a long time ago about how horrible their game is turning out.

P.S. Sandbox game is where the devs give you the tools and the world and the rest is up to you. In this game they give you the tools, the world and then a roller coaster ride of gorging on food and making toys so you can make better food in order to make even better toys.

you may want to read up on this for the reasoning of the diet influence believed back in the days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism

Foods in Elizabethan times were believed all to have an affinity with one of these four humors. A person showing signs of phlegmatism might have been served wine (a choleric drink and the direct opposite humor to phlegmatic) to balance this.

as a casual gamer, i have asked devs if they would give us some simple (but very small) stats also by normal diet besides the gluttony system (as in, the predecessor game, H&H had 3 methods of increasing char stats) but they didnt seem to show any interests then unfortunately


for the second part,

Gorukha wrote:Point of a sandbox game is gaining skills by doing things you choose to focus on and you aren't restricted in what you should be doing. Inspirationals are are a pointless time sink.

probably most people see it differently from your pov, because the point of a sandbox game is not about gaining skills for me.
you do not even have to gain levels or stats to play sandbox games, i think.
but there are things you want to do in game, and you need skills to do it, so you learn things. right?

im afraid that doing things repeatedly to gain skills is, also, a pointless time sink.
of course, repeating things does grant you experience in real world, but in game, it is only click this and click that after all. and imho, crafting or finding things you can study to gain levels makes more sense to me than spam clicking (or botting) to make the same baskets or tools over and over.

Gorukha wrote:Ok I see alot of fanboy blinders on, kinda expected since most people who post here are hardcore fans and everyone else doesn't bother, but I'm a stubborn goat.

Ok, calm down here. Calling people fanboys because they don't share your views doesn't say anything nice about you.

Firstly I know grind comes with the territory , however my point was there is only one way of doing things in this game. How is that sandbox ? Getting stats through one lame and laughable process ?

Most games have only 1 way of increasing skills, so what's the problem?

Making the inspirations is the key to this game, how is that freedom to do whatever you want ? Sandbox ? This game ? NO

Freedom is in settling wherever you want, building whatever you want, killing / destroying whatever you want. Each game comes with its own restrictions. They are called "game rules". And they are what makes game... a game.
Still waiting for the list of games to make some comparison.

The good old excuse "this is just beta". I have been around since UO and I have heard that excuse for every failed mmo from the loyal fans. Next excuse is going to be "The game has just released of course it's flawed" etc. The release of this game is in the 4th quarter of this year right ? That excuse isn't going to fly.

Beta is not and won't be excuse for current mechanics. This is how devs want the game to work, and many people love the game for those mechanics. You don't, but sun will rise tomorrow.

One day people will realize that it is they that failed and not the developers. Every failed sanbox mmo to date has been filled with people who were hardcore fans. They were not able to think critically about their games and those were the people the developers listened to. The devs already think they are the end all of creativity since they are making a game and we are just sitting on the sidelines waiting to play it. All they need is a bit of cheerleading from fanboys and they never realise how horribly flawed their games are. This seems to be the case here, because someone should have hit em on the head with some honesty a long time ago about how horrible their game is turning out.

One thing I'd like to point out. Before Salem there was Haven & Hearth created by the same devs. People played that game for years, and now Paradox wanted something similar and they made a deal with H&H's devs, giving them free hand to create Salem. The point is that ideas, mechanics and gameplay were already used, tested, and liked in earlier game, for years. It's much different than games you are used to, and we are happy about it. You don't have to be.

P.S. Sandbox game is where the devs give you the tools and the world and the rest is up to you. In this game they give you the tools, the world and then a roller coaster ride of gorging on food and making toys so you can make better food in order to make even better toys.

And that's what Salem is. Devs give you world and tools (skills, crafting recipes etc.) and you can build whatever, whenever you like. Alone or with others. You can be raider, ranger or just a farmer. You can change the world. That's much more than many other games, which call themselves sandboxes, offer.
You put too much value in food and humours. They are not alpha and omega of this game. They are just a tool to be able to make new things or do them better / faster.

edit: and hell, even if it was about making toys and food. I would much more prefer it to making 1000 planks in 5 hours straight in Wurm to increase my carpentry by 1 point and then throw away the planks. At least those "toys" bring some variety to the skill "grind". Because you have to craft different inspirationals with different materials for different skills

Gorukha wrote:gorging on food and making toys so you can make better food in order to make even better toys.

Isn't that what all those games do though? Not the gorging part specifically, but making your character stronger to get and make better things, to then go on becoming stronger, to get and make better things, etc.

You seem to not be a fan of the gorging as a means to show and implement progress.

Gorukha wrote:Ok I see alot of fanboy blinders on, kinda expected since most people who post here are hardcore fans and everyone else doesn't bother, but I'm a stubborn goat.

Firstly I know grind comes with the territory , however my point was there is only one way of doing things in this game. How is that sandbox ? Getting stats through one lame and laughable process ? Making the inspirations is the key to this game, how is that freedom to do whatever you want ? Sandbox ? This game ? NO

The good old excuse "this is just beta". I have been around since UO and I have heard that excuse for every failed mmo from the loyal fans. Next excuse is going to be "The game has just released of course it's flawed" etc. The release of this game is in the 4th quarter of this year right ? That excuse isn't going to fly.

One day people will realize that it is they that failed and not the developers. Every failed sanbox mmo to date has been filled with people who were hardcore fans. They were not able to think critically about their games and those were the people the developers listened to. The devs already think they are the end all of creativity since they are making a game and we are just sitting on the sidelines waiting to play it. All they need is a bit of cheerleading from fanboys and they never realise how horribly flawed their games are. This seems to be the case here, because someone should have hit em on the head with some honesty a long time ago about how horrible their game is turning out.

P.S. Sandbox game is where the devs give you the tools and the world and the rest is up to you. In this game they give you the tools, the world and then a roller coaster ride of gorging on food and making toys so you can make better food in order to make even better toys.

You sound awfully mad at us because this particular sandbox (yes it's a sandbox, dealwithit) doesn't cater to your style and doesn't do things your way. If you haven't noticed, there are multiple ways to progress in games and this game has a rather unique approach to it. Just because you find it "lame and laughable" doesn't mean others do. If you can't accept it, then I suggest you find yourself another sandbox, there's quite a few that use the system you're talking about. Not that that system is any more sandboxy as you claim it is, because it's basically the same thing.