Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

[Dallane]

And I hope that's what this multiple server support is - not something that let's you hop / trade between worlds on the character, but rather separate worlds so that new player always has relatively new world to choose from.

When a new one comes up its closed to xfering characters. for a couple months and then it open up and we can pay silver to move between them.

[anfros]

Salem, like H&H and most hardcore / full-scale pvp games, suffers from dwindling player retention. Most people will leave the game not because there is no new content or they get bored, but because they were raided and/or killed. And at some point during world's life new players don't want to join because then they have to compete with long-time veterans with whom they have no chances.

True, got same experiences.
Some people may try to say that new players should join those veterans, but they forgot that following orders is not fun for all people.
People like freedom and purpose in games, unfortunately in Salem we don't have many freedoms and only purpose is total domination or nothing.

I would like to bring up Eve online as a MMO which is very similar to Salem in these aspects. Eve has over 400 000 subs (which are 15€/month). Eve has a lot more carebear content than salem but in reality there is about the same amount of opportunity to grief people, also acquiring high end stuff is much harder and building characters can take years. In Eve all the "hardcore" groups have chains of commands and if you ever want to be competitive you are going to have to get used to taking orders, to some degree. It doesn't matter if it's production, construction, trade, or PVP, Organization is the KEY to success. Also studies conducted by Eve's developers has shown that the players who stay with the game the longest are the players who join the big communities. So in conclusion, having to take orders is what allows people to become successful and also what makes for people having the maximum amount of fun, that said there are examples of people taking this to far.

Salem is not WOW, Guild Wars or any other theme park MMO, Salem IS hardcore and Salem will be hardcore. Being a casual will never be an option if you want to be competitive in any way, this is a simple fact. As for noobs who join a server late, whether they are able to be competitive will always depend more on the community than on the game. If people begin to see noobs for what they are, a never ending well of potential, rather than a burden we will see that there is a lot of potential for growth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96b7Jk5xCTQ

[Procne]

I don't know if EVE is a good comparison since it doesn't really have any permadeath. I still believe that Travian and other similar PvP oriented games are more similar. And in those games noobs or people who started late are more of a burden than potential. Mostly they are only good for farming. Heh I remember how applications to travian guilds were handled, where officers would decide if player would be better as a farm than as an ally. And that's how it works in Salem, or H&H - where do raiders get most of their stuff from? From raiding newbies or weaker players who could not properly defend themselves :/

Yes, being casual you have no chances of being competitive. But is it really the point of Salem to be the very best, like noone ever was? To be the king of Salem? Some people play for fun. And some others can't really grasp this. It's actually funny watching some people going ultra-defensive mode when their position in Salem world is even slightly questioned.

[ramuller]

I would like to bring up Eve online as a MMO which is very similar to Salem in these aspects. Eve has over 400 000 subs (which are 15€/month). Eve has a lot more carebear content than salem but in reality there is about the same amount of opportunity to grief people, also acquiring high end stuff is much harder and building characters can take years. In Eve all the "hardcore" groups have chains of commands and if you ever want to be competitive you are going to have to get used to taking orders, to some degree. It doesn't matter if it's production, construction, trade, or PVP, Organization is the KEY to success. Also studies conducted by Eve's developers has shown that the players who stay with the game the longest are the players who join the big communities. So in conclusion, having to take orders is what allows people to become successful and also what makes for people having the maximum amount of fun, that said there are examples of people taking this to far.

...

I don't think we can make to strong a comparison between EvE and Salem. Although people can grief in EvE, the results of that griefing are rather mild by comparison: you can loose a ship and get killed (which just bounces you into your clone); however, you can't lose your skills (unless you don't keep your clone up to date), all you lose is money and players learn not to fly things they can't afford to lose. Also, there are reasonably good protections that make joining communities relatively safe (I might end up with a bunch of my stuff stuck in a station where I am no longer permitted to dock, but I still have my only truly valuable asset -- my skills).

[_Gunnar]

The "optimal" way to play salem (& haven) is to have production alts that feed combat alts, which are the only characters you should be risking, and as such are kindof like ships in EVE? But I've never played EVE, so cant comment too much.... (nor have i ever been hardcore enough to play like this in haven or salem)

[anfros]

I was, until about 8 months ago, part of the leadership of one of the biggest alliances on one world in Lord of Ultima, which is a game similar to travian, And, while I do see that there are some things in common between salem and these MMO-RTS games, I must say that there are so many fundamental differences between these games that your argument is somewhat flawed. First of all the progression in MMO-RTSes is time dependent where in Salem all progression is based on assets. This means that if you join an MMO-RTS late you are hopelessly behind but in salem you can join late and still be able to catch up, given that you have access to the right stuff, this doesn't mean that you have to join a village but doing so will allow you to learn the game more effectively and prepare you for a life of hermiting if that's what you are aiming for.

Another argument is that as a world progresses in a MMO-RTS your own progression speed will grow exponentially, in lord of ultima for example reaching your second city would take ~a week for most players but ounce you where about 2-3 months into the game there was not uncommon to start 5-10 new cities per day. In salem on the other hand progression takes more and more resources and time the longer your character develops.

I know EVE may not be the best parallel because of permadeath etc... I brought it up because it is another hardcore MMO which has many of the same "problems" with griefing an such, and yet is one of the oldest MMOs still running and has had a constant population growth since it's launch in 2003.

As for noobs not being able protect themselves the same really goes for any hermit, It is simple fact that no static defense is ever going to keep a determined group of attackers out no matter how many walls and braziers you have. The only thing that will be able to keep attackers away in the long run is the ability to retaliate, in some way or another.

[Steve]

Would be nice if we could return to the topic at hand: Why is there so few people playing the game?

[slipper]

The early game - the most fun part of HnH - is totally **** in Salem. Paving destroys your stamina and there is no "water", it takes days until you can build your house, actually, everything takes eons to do. In Haven, if you aren't going to play for a while you can just put a curiosity in your study tab that will take longer to study, in Salem you have to be online and to be constantly looking for new curios and you also have to watch your black bile, hours and hours foraging and looking at the ugly terrain textures.

[Vibe]

The early game - the most fun part of HnH - is totally **** in Salem. Paving destroys your stamina and there is no "water", it takes days until you can build your house, actually, everything takes eons to do. In Haven, if you aren't going to play for a while you can just put a curiosity in your study tab that will take longer to study, in Salem you have to be online and to be constantly looking for new curios and you also have to watch your black bile, hours and hours foraging and looking at the ugly terrain textures.

I agree. In the early game you need to fill up the whole inventory of Waxing Toadstools if you want to pave or terraform a semi-small area. I don't agree that building your house takes days, I actually found it shorter. But there's way too much foraging going on, the humours drain too fast and you need a whole lot of forageables to restore it.

[darnokpl]

I would like to bring up Eve online as a MMO which is very similar to Salem in these aspects.

There is no perma death in Eve and you can always make money in "safe zone" as far as I know it.

Eve has a lot more carebear content than salem but in reality there is about the same amount of opportunity to grief people...

Last time I played there was "guards" in safe zones almost instant killing aggressive people.

In Eve all the "hardcore" groups have chains of commands and if you ever want to be competitive you are going to have to get used to taking orders, to some degree. It doesn't matter if it's production, construction, trade, or PVP, Organization is the KEY to success.

50% true + in game knowledge = 100% success

Also studies conducted by Eve's developers has shown that the players who stay with the game the longest are the players who join the big communities. So in conclusion, having to take orders is what allows people to become successful and also what makes for people having the maximum amount of fun, that said there are examples of people taking this to far.

Both eve and salem are community games, so it shouldn't be surprise.

Salem is not WOW, Guild Wars or any other theme park MMO, Salem IS hardcore and Salem will be hardcore. Being a casual will never be an option if you want to be competitive in any way, this is a simple fact. As for noobs who join a server late, whether they are able to be competitive will always depend more on the community than on the game. If people begin to see noobs for what they are, a never ending well of potential, rather than a burden we will see that there is a lot of potential for growth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96b7Jk5xCTQ

I 100% agree with you here, but you see community here doesn't like newbies and reason for that is very simple they don't need them (newbies).
In eve there are huge battles, so every ship and canon is a good thing, here 3 characters can destroy whole town, so why to bother with newbies?