Salem Community and You

[Ass_Kraken]

IMO the main problem is that neighbours are just competition, if there was some benefit to having people settle near you things would be a lot better.

/yawn

you have absolutely nothing to base your comment on, at least wait until potjeh says something of substance.

[Makestro]

Was just pointing out his example was able to be abused, if my statement is untrue I wouldn't even reply but the fact you're willing to drag this out is rather sad.

[sabinati]

He just posted it, was just saying his form has room for abuse that he talked about and was pointing out there is a benefit to having neighbors.

he posted a problem, not an idea for a solution to that problem. his idea can't possibly have a lot of room for abuse, because it doesn't exist yet.

[Makestro]

Was just pointing out his example was able to be abused, if my statement is untrue I wouldn't even reply but the fact you're willing to drag this out is rather sad.

[colesie]

Stop ***** up my perfectly executed, beautiful and well thought out thread with your talk of Potjeh. We all know he talks like a jazz musician and it's the words he doesn't say that he wants you to hear.

[Jalpha]

It's interesting to watch how this thread degenerated so rapidly into people vehemently refuting the viewpoints of others. Kind of unfortunate though, I think we all have valid points to make, and common ground could be found if sought.

Anyway, I don't think as a community we will ever be able to talk the bad guys out of being bad guys. They will always be there, and they have many advantages. In life as well, being the good guy is inherently more challenging. That's the playstyle they enjoy and so be it.
Now... The problem, as I see it, lies in part with the methods attempted, and also partially to a lack of vigilance on part of the good guys. Then, as well, the good guys need a large degree of resilience in order to perservere, because everyone needs to sleep sometimes, and bad things will always happen. Something can always be learned though.

I... Have a few ideas, and I also agree with some of the others posted in this thread, so I'll state them as I envision. I am expecting a hail of molotovs, most likely some flamethrowers as well and perhaps fire may even rain down upon me from the sky above... Regardless... Here goes...

I like the idea of an optional tutorial island with some beginner quests to help players get a feel for the game. I think it would be kind of neat if one of those quests involved an NPC playing the part of a PC and ganking the unsuspecting new player. I think this would teach them a valuable lesson which would enhance their ability to persevere, and encourage their use of precautions, once released into the real world of Salem. Of course there should be no lasting damage to the new character as a result because as we all know I'm sure... Newbies are very attached to their two hour old characters. As I was. However I digress.

I like the idea of a peace grid. I utilized that location in H&H and my best moments of the game were enjoyed there. However, I think a peace grid shouldn't be the sole responsibility of one faction. The protection of the area for the benefit of new people and favorable others should be a totally neutral responsibility, taken on by a number of factions who may or may not have conflicts of interest in the rest of the game world. This responsibility should override any conflicts of interest between participating factions. For the sake of honor, and the building of a populous community, to the advantage of both those who trade, and those who raid.
By including multiple factions in the policing of the area you reduce the workload and prevent the inevitable conflicts of interest between factions leeching into the peace grid and neutering its positive effects. Theoretically. If people can be mature, and honorable enough to set aside petty differences for the sake of something more important. Maybe I am too naively sanguine, but I believe in us all, and our ability to manage the community positively, despite the efforts of those who cannot foresee, or do not care for, the advantages to be had by all for allowing such a thing to be.

Another method could be the introduction of "Sheriffs". Players nominated by the community, suffering an increased level of direct accountability to the devs and mods, with special powers for the disciplining of criminals who transgress the laws of the peace grid. The considerations which need to be taken into account regarding this option are, however, a can of worms too large for me to juggle, I merely state that it could be an option. I believe that specifically, the management of that accountability and the potential for abuse of powers entrusted could, and most likely would, become an issue in many ways. I can't imagine this option not turning into a *****, which is why I think we are better off managing a peace grid on our own, without abnormal assistance from game mechanics.

Fire away, constructive criticism is, as always, appreciated.

[Vibe]

Problem is Jalpha, permadeath/harsh penalty pvp and griefer friendly games attract the worst players of the internet you could ever imagine. Expecting a constructive discussion here is a dream.

[megasego]

Problem is Jalpha, permadeath/harsh penalty pvp and griefer friendly games attract the worst players of the internet you could ever imagine. Expecting a constructive discussion here is a dream.

I disagree. I've seen players I see as far "worse" in a non-permadeath/non-harsh penalty pvp game such as "Guild Wars 2".

[_Gunnar]

i pretty much agree with everything that joco says here, wtf is wrong with you kids.

[except that imo the "peace grid" in haven left a sour taste in my mouth, simply because i'd rather people acted consistently. it also wasn't the first time that someone has enforced peace in a supergrid (hi potjeh, for example).]

also, just cause people throw around "carebear" and "farmville" so much, it really annoys me....

It is possible to not be an *******/raider/griefer while simultaneously not being a "carebear", playing "farmville", or whatever! The fact that so few people understand this really makes me depressed. Just cause I don't raid people as my source of wealth doesn't mean that I can't exert power over them (examples: bottleneck, Sodom, many smaller villages (including Wyrmhold) in haven to a lesser extent). Just because someone doesn't like hurting people doesn't mean they can't/ won't.

[MagicManICT]

It's interesting to watch how this thread degenerated so rapidly into people vehemently refuting the viewpoints of others. Kind of unfortunate though, I think we all have valid points to make, and common ground could be found if sought.

Interesting as the ancient curse "May you live in interesting times," or as in "I find this form of art very interesting"? I have many words for this type of discussion, but interesting left the list a very long time ago. (Ah... I miss the days of rec.games.* where the discussion could get heavily moderated so people didn't have to pay to download troll posts at 2400 baud....)

Anyway, my point is that there are a lot of reasonable people around here, and I agree that there's a lot of good thoughts in this thread. I just can never be sure who just isn't thinking of all the points of view and who is just being an internet troll when they post. You'd think you were listening to a political debate just before election day.

@_Gunnar: I freely admit I'm a carebear. Just look at my profile pic from the Haven forums: http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/mem ... le&u=17980. Just remember bears have teeth and claws, too. (And seriously... why the term carebear, even? Biggest group of "think our way or we're going to beat you into it" since certain political and religious groups.) Without the PvP, this game really is just another Farmville type.