Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Announcements of major changes to Salem.

Re: Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Postby JinxDevona » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:32 am

FutureForJames wrote:
JinxDevona wrote:
FutureForJames wrote:As for your "storms" issue: using your argument you could argue that people with crime debuff shouldn't stay inside the game when they logout, because due to your "storms" you would be leep a large risk whenever you trespass. Point is: it is ridiculous to adjust the game to anomalities such as your situation.

My situation, hello do you watch the news. Power out across many states at once, several times in the past few months is not my situation. Don't be so damn condescending.


Yes, such "small" domestic issues have low probabilty of being printed in the newspapers of other countries for more than one article. So ya, I assumed that your situation is an anomaly that affects less than 10% of the Salem population. If the problem affects more of the population, there is reason to start changing the crime debuff mechanic since in its current state is very punishing against people who disconnects.

100,000s of thousands of people losing power is not small. Not to mention, much of Salem's player base is here as well. Why after all these posts do you write back on this?

MODS: please remove these derails from topic. I know I helped but I can't stand ignorance and have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. :o
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Re: Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Postby darnokpl » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:43 am

EnderWiggin wrote:You can't surround one claim with others not leaving a gap in them - now claims can't be placed adjacent to each other. Plus bigger waste claim covers 1K tiles, thus greatly increasing size of surrounding claims/walls


I thought that bigger waste-claims are only to counter town claims.

Yet it is possible to create one huge "claim wall", just put town bells in corners and connect it with narrow pclaims :P
If you have enough silver you can make it as large as waste-claim and then nobody will be able to raid you in 18h, they would have to wait twice longer.
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Re: Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Postby martinuzz » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:12 pm

This patch greatly benefits all your local coffee and stronger stimulant dealers, to help keep you awake until you can destroy that waste claim. I guess I need to cut down on the weed and start snorting.
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Re: Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Postby JeffGV » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:13 pm

FutureForJames wrote:Analogously, one could state that people transporting valuable items should be aware of possible risks.


And as i said before, it would greatly screw up exploration and early game. For one who has just started, even a smooth stone can be precious. Not to talk about nails and the writ of homesteading.
And exploration would be limited on what you can do before having to go back home in a single session, assuming you know exactly how much time you have to play. Not to talk about making a new base. Do you plan to flat terrain, build an homestead and all the walls in a single play session so that you can store your items safely?

It can't work. It would just make playing tedious. The problem with alts is that you can't stop them unless screwing up all the people playing "normally", that is, even the ones who don't use them.

FutureForJames wrote:Edit:
And before you state something akin to "but committing crimes is bad" and "transporting valuable items is not bad", please read following post from Jorb at H&H forums:

Extended Treatise on That Which Really Should Be Bloody Obvious to Anyone Above A Grade School Level of Mental Development

There exists a popular misconception that actions in the H&H game world can be neatly classified as being either "offensive" -- in the sense of doing harm to other players -- or "peaceful" -- in the sense of not doing harm to other players. On the basis of this misconception some people have suggested that players who exclusively perform actions pertaining to the latter category should be kept safe from actions sorting under the former. While this conclusion -- that peaceful players should not be subject to PvP -- does indeed follows from the premises -- and in this sense isn't a logical fallacy per se -- it nevertheless remains the case that one of the premises necessary to arrive at this conclusion is deeply and fundamentally flawed. Namely, as pointed out above, the false belief that there exists a clear and formalized divide between offensive and peaceful actions, so formalized and neat, in fact, that it can be reduced to computer code and determined mechanically. As an afterthought, the careful scribe is want to ask himself: Do these suggesters -- in their postings so full of self-righteous ire -- also propose do replace our real life court systems with punch-cards and calculators?

The H&H game world attempts -- to no small an extent -- to simulate events and processes of the real world in a digitalized form. In so doing, it would be an object of abject failure if, along with the beauties and wonders of real life, not also some of the difficulties associated with it were to be emulated. Some difficulties are, indeed, impossible to abstract away, simply because they follow from the very essence of that which we, admittedly, are trying to simulate. One such difficulty is crime.

Players in the H&H game world share the same "physical" space, and, also, the same theoretical potentials for affecting it. Some actions performed in order to affect the game world are, however, mutually exclusive with other such actions. For example: If I claim a piece of land, you can not also claim it. If I wish to see a tile plowed, it can not also, at the same time, per your wish, be planted with grass. Players in H&H have certain means at their disposal to deny other players the execution of certain actions. Such means include walls, claims, physical occupation, consuming, destruction, etc, but these actions in fact only compound to make the point infinitely more true: The land which I have claimed, you cannot claim. The basket that I am carrying, you can not carry. The apple that I have eaten, you can not eat.

To further develop on this point, let us make it painfully clear that this relation is so integrated in the very essence of H&H that it is impossible to even play the game without performing an action which is mutually exclusive, at least in time and place, with another action. If you are standing on the tile which I wish to plow, I cannot plow it. This means that the nub who has just created his first character and logged in, by the mere act of existing, is denying other players certain courses of action -- the most obvious one being interaction with that particular tile, but, as said nub starts to play, more and more actions will be denied other players by his act of simply playing. There is no shame in this, the number of potential actions is so great so as to approach the infinite, but, nevertheless: by acting in the H&H game world you are denying other players options that they would have had, had you not been playing the game.

When one adopts and understands this perspective, it becomes clear as sparkling morning dew on a well mowed lawn that there does not exist a clear divide between offensive and peaceful actions. Every action you do denies another player some potential action. In speaking with von Clausewitz, we can observe that combat, thus, is only the continuation of action denying by other means. If you stand on the tile I wish to plow, I can hurt you to make you go away. If, on the other hand, I can't attack you, then you have the means to permanently and irrevocably deny me particular courses of action for as long as you and your whims see fit. And, in this sense, every potential action is always offensive or, every potential action is always peaceful or the distinction is meaningless, whichever one you prefer.

As a child I often enjoyed and participated in a fun little game called "The Air is Free". Perhaps it was due to some particular gift in my childhood self, but I remember observing already at that young age that there was something very fishy about the often repeated commandment of the grown-ups that I must never hit another child. The game -- which is more an act of playful ***** than an actual game -- consists of doing every annoying thing in your power without actually touching the other child. You can invade his personal space, you can wave your hands back and forth around his face, but you aren't actually touching him, and, since the air is free, you can always maintain that you did nothing wrong. Only a very stupid child buys this, of course. A smart child hits you in the face, as he should, and, indeed, that is how the game usually ends.

I now ask you to conjure up the vilest demons of your most cruel, childish imaginations. If the air was, indeed, free. What is the worst you could do?

New players, I would also like to add, should be, and are, particularly easy to target. The amount of investment needed to create one is so small that affording them any means of special security is inviting for them to be used as grief-machines and if they die, not much has been lost. Imagine, if you will, what you could do if new players were untouchable for the first 12 hours of game time. Jeez-louise, that would not be a pretty sight.

Enjoy.


Beside what i think of that post (i frankly think that it is *****) you can see for yourself how that point of view has worked so far.
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Re: Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Postby martinuzz » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:32 pm

Question: If I first build a small PC, and build my waste claim on that, will other players need to build another waste claim to be able to destroy my waste claim?
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Re: Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Postby Kandarim » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:34 pm

JeffGV wrote:
FutureForJames wrote:Edit:
And before you state something akin to "but committing crimes is bad" and "transporting valuable items is not bad", please read following post from Jorb at H&H forums:

Extended Treatise on That Which Really Should Be Bloody Obvious to Anyone Above A Grade School Level of Mental Development

There exists a popular misconception that actions in the H&H game world can be neatly classified as being either "offensive" -- in the sense of doing harm to other players -- or "peaceful" -- in the sense of not doing harm to other players. On the basis of this misconception some people have suggested that players who exclusively perform actions pertaining to the latter category should be kept safe from actions sorting under the former. While this conclusion -- that peaceful players should not be subject to PvP -- does indeed follows from the premises -- and in this sense isn't a logical fallacy per se -- it nevertheless remains the case that one of the premises necessary to arrive at this conclusion is deeply and fundamentally flawed. Namely, as pointed out above, the false belief that there exists a clear and formalized divide between offensive and peaceful actions, so formalized and neat, in fact, that it can be reduced to computer code and determined mechanically. As an afterthought, the careful scribe is want to ask himself: Do these suggesters -- in their postings so full of self-righteous ire -- also propose do replace our real life court systems with punch-cards and calculators?

The H&H game world attempts -- to no small an extent -- to simulate events and processes of the real world in a digitalized form. In so doing, it would be an object of abject failure if, along with the beauties and wonders of real life, not also some of the difficulties associated with it were to be emulated. Some difficulties are, indeed, impossible to abstract away, simply because they follow from the very essence of that which we, admittedly, are trying to simulate. One such difficulty is crime.

Players in the H&H game world share the same "physical" space, and, also, the same theoretical potentials for affecting it. Some actions performed in order to affect the game world are, however, mutually exclusive with other such actions. For example: If I claim a piece of land, you can not also claim it. If I wish to see a tile plowed, it can not also, at the same time, per your wish, be planted with grass. Players in H&H have certain means at their disposal to deny other players the execution of certain actions. Such means include walls, claims, physical occupation, consuming, destruction, etc, but these actions in fact only compound to make the point infinitely more true: The land which I have claimed, you cannot claim. The basket that I am carrying, you can not carry. The apple that I have eaten, you can not eat.

To further develop on this point, let us make it painfully clear that this relation is so integrated in the very essence of H&H that it is impossible to even play the game without performing an action which is mutually exclusive, at least in time and place, with another action. If you are standing on the tile which I wish to plow, I cannot plow it. This means that the nub who has just created his first character and logged in, by the mere act of existing, is denying other players certain courses of action -- the most obvious one being interaction with that particular tile, but, as said nub starts to play, more and more actions will be denied other players by his act of simply playing. There is no shame in this, the number of potential actions is so great so as to approach the infinite, but, nevertheless: by acting in the H&H game world you are denying other players options that they would have had, had you not been playing the game.

When one adopts and understands this perspective, it becomes clear as sparkling morning dew on a well mowed lawn that there does not exist a clear divide between offensive and peaceful actions. Every action you do denies another player some potential action. In speaking with von Clausewitz, we can observe that combat, thus, is only the continuation of action denying by other means. If you stand on the tile I wish to plow, I can hurt you to make you go away. If, on the other hand, I can't attack you, then you have the means to permanently and irrevocably deny me particular courses of action for as long as you and your whims see fit. And, in this sense, every potential action is always offensive or, every potential action is always peaceful or the distinction is meaningless, whichever one you prefer.

As a child I often enjoyed and participated in a fun little game called "The Air is Free". Perhaps it was due to some particular gift in my childhood self, but I remember observing already at that young age that there was something very fishy about the often repeated commandment of the grown-ups that I must never hit another child. The game -- which is more an act of playful ***** than an actual game -- consists of doing every annoying thing in your power without actually touching the other child. You can invade his personal space, you can wave your hands back and forth around his face, but you aren't actually touching him, and, since the air is free, you can always maintain that you did nothing wrong. Only a very stupid child buys this, of course. A smart child hits you in the face, as he should, and, indeed, that is how the game usually ends.

I now ask you to conjure up the vilest demons of your most cruel, childish imaginations. If the air was, indeed, free. What is the worst you could do?

New players, I would also like to add, should be, and are, particularly easy to target. The amount of investment needed to create one is so small that affording them any means of special security is inviting for them to be used as grief-machines and if they die, not much has been lost. Imagine, if you will, what you could do if new players were untouchable for the first 12 hours of game time. Jeez-louise, that would not be a pretty sight.

Enjoy.


Beside what i think of that post (i frankly think that it is *****) you can see for yourself how that point of view has worked so far.


Much as I agree with that post, I would also like to point out that it was posted on HnH forums. A game where Jorb & Loftar have full rights to screw up in any way they deem fit. Yet never ever have they implemented a "lose all on log-out" rule. Don't you think haven faces the same "problem" ? What you saw happen there was that -sure- some altvaults are used to secure some very high value items, but most of the time it just isn't worth the trouble to secure everything. Once the sieging system works more or less appreciably, it's just a lot easier to store everything in your own claim.

Also, I tried to not make it about haven, but that post you included just forced me :)
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Re: Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Postby Kandarim » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:37 pm

martinuzz wrote:Question: If I first build a small PC, and build my waste claim on that, will other players need to build another waste claim to be able to destroy my waste claim?


I was thinking about that, and since I doubt that is the case I am assuming waste claims are excluded from needing a waste claim
if that were the case it also wouldn't be possible to destroy the waste claim before a slight window of opportunity for the attacker (imagine the chains we could create to destroy just that first waste claim)

yo dawg, I put a waste claim on your waste claim so I can claim waste while you can claim waste.
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Re: Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Postby CharlesM » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:38 pm

So if I have a rail fence and someone lays down a claim to waste right outside of it, can't I just build another rail fence past the waste claim then extend my claim over it so they cannot even access the waste claim?

Brilliant.
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Re: Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Postby FutureForJames » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:46 pm

CharlesM wrote:So if I have a rail fence and someone lays down a claim to waste right outside of it, can't I just build another rail fence past the waste claim then extend my claim over it so they cannot even access the waste claim?

Brilliant.


If I by tiles, they mean Ender-squares, then the range of "A Subtle Warning" is insanely large: 400x400 squares, so your idea wouldn't work in practice.
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Re: Game Development: Time Enough for Love

Postby Droj » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:03 pm

Awesome update jorbtar!

Really gives defenders a chance to take action before they wake up and realise their claim which they worked so long and hard for has been razed to the ground!

jorb wrote:Stove now requires Humble Abodes


This was my only concern as the first thing many newbs will do is make a hovel then wonder why they can't make a stove :roll:
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