Game Development: Theatrum Chemicum

[MagicManICT]

Nope, I have actually not graphed all the formula's in the game. Have you?

No, I don't need to. I know what the graphs for the various formulas look like because I've actually looked at the formulas and I've done enough graphing of various functions in my life I know what many of them look like. As much as I hated the homework, having to draw all those graphs by hand in high school has paid off. Truly, you shouldn't either if you've looked at the formulas and thought about them for more than a few minutes. (Note: Not sure anyone has gotten the damage formulas for combat, but they're essentially the same as previously with multipliers for reel and imbalance. They can be found on the Paradox Salem forums.)

I have looked at how much fun I and others have been having while playing, though. Does that count or do I need to run all the numbers first?

Well, this isn't the first time you've brought it up. If a "logarithmic curve" is so much superior, you should probably present some numbers as to why. You may not convince the devs to rework everything, but you might convince us and future game developers.

But, if you're having that much fun, there must not be much anything wrong with the current system.

[lachlaan]

If you're going to make an argument about the difficulty of salem not being similar to a diminishing returns system, then yeah, it'd be nice to have some numbers <.< The worm feeding has diminishing returns in that it gives a bigger bonus when your worms are more impure. The purity of pots and thus trees and compost bins/humus also becomes harder to advance after that initial bonus granted by the highest purity water/lime/granite you forage. So I fail to see how the game lacks diminishing returns You just dislike the rate at which you can improve is all, and that's understandable, but a lot of aspects of the game do have a diminishing returns aspect to them.

[MagicManICT]

If you're going to make an argument about the difficulty of salem not being similar to a diminishing returns system,

That's the thing. There are diminishing returns. The percentage increase in ability to do something approaches 0 as X increases. That value gets small extremely fast. Given the mechanics for increasing proficiencies and humors, there are very much hard caps.

[lachlaan]

@MagicManICT I really should get used to quoting, I was replying to the poster before you, I agree that the game does have diminishing returns If it didn't then you'd just need to put in more effort and would technically be able to improve everything forever. The game's fine, people that want the full experience just need to wait till it's available. That said, I hope Jorbtar do take into account our feedback, I'm just sayin'

[Champie]

Here's the problem summarized in a single image.

Diminishing returns are implemented with logarithmic functions. They:
- Make the game fun and rewarding for new/casual players
- Give hardcore players something to work for
- Impose a "soft-cap"

Instead what we have is a barrier to playing any part of the purity game until the end-game. It is shown in the graph as a long flat line, that then very slowly picks up at the end.

How to fix? Lots of options. I think the simplest is to balance out how purity of all ingredients involved contribute to the final product. Instead of wood for compost bins being the only thing that ultimately matters, make it so the newbie who was paying attention to clay and granite purities can at least have a small reward for that effort.

For what it is worth malaclypse,

I actually read your post. The important context missed by MagicMan and lachlaan are in red bold. If those two want to comment on the PURITY system instead of making an argument about formulas for proficiencies and combat, then I encourage that.

[lachlaan]

"Barrier" ? "End game" ? Having to plant trees is not a barrier, neither is it part of the end game. With the new proficiency changes I can get up to forestry in a day or two, from scratch. Or rather, I did just get to it in two days that consisted mostly of walking around aimlessly.

To be honest, I don't think you should be handed access to every single aspect of the game right off the bat. You can get worms looking in stumps, forage the plants needed to feed them and make a compost bin without any "end-game" skills. It's part of the purity grind, and for a new player it's right there to be tinkered with. Arguing that you can't get right into the entirety of the purity grind is like arguing that there's a barrier between you and knocking down plank fences until the "end-game". There are also similar barriers between yourself and murdering people, or pumping out iron. Needing forestry and some skills and time to get your purity up isn't a barrier, it's just making people work for purity food from now on. And if newbies ever manage to take out some of the more developed players' bases, it will actually set them back, rather than not dent them at all because they have 100% purity seeds alt-vaulted all over the place. In a game with permadeath, perma100purity wasn't a very balanced system, so people will have to use the actual mechanics put in place to defend their stuff now, because it now matters a lot. Want to keep your bins? Vclaim all over. Want to keep your vclaim? Defend against trial by fire, and do some actual PvP rather than sitting on a pclaim and not caring wether you lose any stuff because everything's altvaulted.

[Ken]

Hello gentlemans,
What do you guys know about a wipe?
I'm studying and working in real life so playing Salem aswell but I want to know this to don't make my effort for nothing.

[Pikdum]

Finally, a update to reduce the grind. This is the update I have been waiting for to start playing Salem again.

[malaclypse]

There are diminishing returns. The percentage increase in ability to do something approaches 0 as X increases. That value gets small extremely fast. Given the mechanics for increasing proficiencies and humors, there are very much hard caps.

To be more precise (should've guessed math nerds would require it):
- I'm referring to the purity grind, because that's what the last 3 epic announce threads have been about.
- The typical diminishing returns graph rewards the first action the most.. which leads to the main point. ..
- Raising purity is effectively cut off from you until you acquire one of the most expensive skills, not because it inherently makes sense to do so, but rather because compost bin wood weighs disproportionately in the food purity equation.

warranties and disclaimers: these are my opinions only, I'm a casual player who will not give you formulae to prove my thoughts, and written on mobile on the train so forgive my spelling.

[dageir]

It seems like pumpkin flesh, garlics and bellpeppers are the only things that are defined as "any plant" that also are grown. (Except the white mushrooms and grass..)
Of these pumpkin is the only mass-producable item on a field. It would be a great relief if the devs could inlude the cabbages aswell. I will go for the pumpkins in the meanwhile.