Salem

Hello fellow players!

As a sign of joy and renewed expectations toward Salem development, I would like to start a series of (if I survive the first, granted ) threads about design aspects of the game, mainly in comparison with titles that in my, and yours, perspective "did it right".

What I mean by "about design aspects" is that I won't be saying things like "I would like to see the addition of X item to the game", or try to label a specific aspect or mechanic based on what I would "like" or "dislike", but I would rather have this thread centered on a discussion about the implication of design principles and how are they applyed / implemented in this and other games.

Also I know this may be viewed as a futile exercise in words since the devs are not in any way tied to anything we write here... but hey, this is a forum, it's made for words.


Chapter one - Area Control in Salem compared to <type here> game

Yes I'm biased. I've had the most rewarding pvp experiences of my life while playing EVE Online. Yes, I know, It's in space... in the future... on spaceships. However I will be trying to extract design principles from EVE Online PVP experience, analise them, and discuss a possible adaptation to Salem (and mainly for the lols).

Why EVE Online? I like <type here> game's Aera Control system the best!
Then let us know why!

For the ones that are not familiar with the title, EVE Online has a map that is composed of Systems linked together by Gates. The only way to go from System A to System B is to follow a path of Gates going from System to System OR use end-game technology and skills to open a temporary portal from Spaceship A to Spaceship B (granted you managed to get the really expensive spaceship B inside an enemy system).

Tell us your point...
The point is strategy, and the time needed to react to a plan. In EVE you can, and do, very well know the position and extent of the area controlled by the different factions, but that won't be sufficient (as mostly is in Salem) to pillage and destroy them. Why? Because Gates. You have to pass through Gates first and that in time means that you have to pass through certain systems in order to reach the main base of your enemy. Traveling through said Gates takes time, and alert scouts will certainly see you coming through, knowing the path you have to follow. That gives the defending party some time to organize a defense strategy, also slightly (but just slightly) mitigating the power of infiltrated agents.

That's dumb isn't it? Salem can't have pockets of land linked by limited gateways
True. But bear with me a little longer... Let's extract the design concept from that:

The Secondary Objective Principle: In order to conquer Point A, you must first conquer Point B (and C, and...)

Is it possible to implement this principle in Salems setting? I think it is... Let's say for a moment that when you lay a town claim you do not just get absolute control over the claim area, but also a "Well Balanced (tm)" defense system designed to discourage (not block) hostile trespassers coupled with the ability to have a vantage point for the acquisition of intelligence regarding enemy troups movement.

We can certainly imagine town dwellers building watch towers and small forts in key position around the main village / farms, that let them know of "any" (any detectable) player movement in a certain radius, while also (possibly) shooting at them (or partially draining their biles) from a distance. Then, in order for the attackers to have enough room and time or biles to prepare the required "Siege Equipment (tm)" they will have to attack and destroy those forts and towers first. More fun time destroying things for the attackers, more planning, more incentive toward team play (manning the towers, or being in the vicinity could increase the range/damage or something), more time to log in and defend.


Conclusion

If you got here, and didn't skip the paragraphs after "Hello", thanks for reading! You earned the right to say how much I am wrong or propose an even superior design approach to Area Control. Also feel free to point out how much better is the design implemeted by other games, or also how much you think Salem already is better than anything else.
Just please... please... if you feel like doing it, let also the reasoning behind your statement be known.

Cheers!

Small forts and towers are a great idea. +1.

I look forward to more of these, actual discussion of game concepts is much more fulfilling than the usual "I want a two handed sword" etc etc. I'm not saying that kind of post is worthless, but this has much more meaning.

I am not sure how the concept you proposed of towers differs from Braziers and Torch posts? Unless I missed something. Edit: reread you post and I get your idea of towers now, perhaps they could be fuelled with food as a bit of a resource sink for the easily obtained cabbages, pumpkins, etc.

Someone, somewhere on the forum has suggested another level of territory control. Like personal claims and town claims, the province claim (I think thats what they called it) covers a massive area but does not block any rights to anyone. The only noticeable change is that players entering the province receive a notification that you have entered the area like a Town does at the minute. By one means or another, enemy players can contest a provinces right to claim ownership of area, perhaps by damaging the border post or (in the original suggestion by building something). In this adaptation of their initial suggestion I am going to randomly decide that a border post must be damaged 4 times, needing 32hrs cool down between each damage, and requiring certain expense to repair the damage. Instead of simply requiring the same thing every time the materials for repair should be different. My thinking for this is that you shouldn't be able to patrol your area with a bag of... iron to repair any damage, but need to be able to respond to the demands of the province, perhaps it will ask for a specific food, or an argo pelter trophy, or a specific inspirational, you get the idea.

The original suggestion also linked this system with a leader board that displayed the areas of the provinces. If a weak province grows too big its rivals will hunt it out and knock it down a peg or too, or try to wipe it out entirely. This would give reason to start wars and add some meaning. It would also give a logical way for people opt into a leader board system, without having any "Anonymous" entries.

Scilly_guy wrote:I am not sure how the concept you proposed of towers differs from Braziers and Torch posts? Unless I missed something. Edit: reread you post and I get your idea of towers now, perhaps they could be fuelled with food as a bit of a resource sink for the easily obtained cabbages, pumpkins, etc.

I believe he means watch towers remote from your base. You could have rings of scout towers 15, 30, 60 minutes away from your base or at critical mountain passes etc...

I'm with you now, some sort of automated intelligence network, sounds like a reasonable idea to me, and could work with the idea I mentioned too, either in a less automated sense where by players interacting with the environment within a province leave a scent that informs the person who picks it how long since it was left. Or by the watch towers acting like border posts.

I'm now thinking a watchtower, with a plank fence, brazier and pclaim, I guess if a province wants to defend itself that well then they will have to pay the upkeep on the pclaim, and the upkeep for the watchtower, and dare I suggest it again, the upkeep in coal for the braziers.

Edit:
Scents left on a province claim:
scrumping scent - x% chance left for picking things - lasts xhrs
poaching scent - x% chance left for killing an animal - lasts xhrs
squating scent - left for building structures - lasts xdays
I don't know what appropriate values would be so I won't mislead people by putting random figures in.

Suffragium wrote:Small forts and towers are a great idea. +1.

It's very bad idea to add towers ,maybe then they will add bows?cannon?crossbows?dragons? and we can play in game called Towers

I'm not alone! YAY!

I see we do not lack the creativity to put an abstract idea into game terms, and the ones who commented were a lot better than in me in detailing different possible implementations.

I will then go back to abstract things:

Why is the "Secondary Objective First*" principle useful?

I believe mostly because of the time element in mmos. Players just can't be logged in at all times. Whatever can be destroyed while you are asleep, or in any other time frame, without the chance to intervene in time to stop the attacker is just not worth investing time on. In this regard Salem lacks big time. Anyone skilled enough can destroy a <arbitrary number here> month worth of work in few minutes if there are no defenders on site.
I will go as far as to argue that the possibility of establishing an inteligence network is paramount in any game that lets you build persistent infrastructure / ownership because intelligence can be exploited by clever positioning of characters both in time and space (in-game space) in order to give defenders the time to react. And if the defenders can ract there will be an actual confrontation instead of griefing.

Another thing that can mitigate the time frame problem is having certain actions actually take time. Take for example Planetside 2 or any other fps with strategic points to capture. In order to capture a point you must stay on the spot for a certain amount of time while the enemy party is notified that someone is taking that point. Also in Planetside 2, in order to take a base, you have to conquer the smaller bases around first, giving defenders a distinct advantage which is only fair: if you managed to conquer that base before you have the upper hand in defending it.
Also EVE Online does that masterfully imo. To take down a player-built station you have to bring in the dreadnoughts, massive spaceships firing cannons that can only be aimed at practically non-moving targets. it also takes hours, time during which the dreadnought itself must be defended and it is incredibly expensive.


Are you thinking "military camps", "supply lines" and "cannons" yet? I think you should.


* I changed the name here to convey the clear meaning that you in some way "have" to achieve the secondary objective before the primary, or at least it makes things simpler.

nonsonogiucas wrote::o I'm not alone! YAY!

I see we do not lack the creativity to put an abstract idea into game terms, and the ones who commented were a lot better than in me in detailing different possible implementations.

I will then go back to abstract things:

Why is the "Secondary Objective First*" principle useful?

I believe mostly because of the time element in mmos. Players just can't be logged in at all times. Whatever can be destroyed while you are asleep, or in any other time frame, without the chance to intervene in time to stop the attacker is just not worth investing time on. In this regard Salem lacks big time. Anyone skilled enough can destroy a <arbitrary number here> month worth of work in few minutes if there are no defenders on site.
I will go as far as to argue that the possibility of establishing an inteligence network is paramount in any game that lets you build persistent infrastructure / ownership because intelligence can be exploited by clever positioning of characters both in time and space (in-game space) in order to give defenders the time to react. And if the defenders can ract there will be an actual confrontation instead of griefing.

Another thing that can mitigate the time frame problem is having certain actions actually take time. Take for example Planetside 2 or any other fps with strategic points to capture. In order to capture a point you must stay on the spot for a certain amount of time while the enemy party is notified that someone is taking that point. Also in Planetside 2, in order to take a base, you have to conquer the smaller bases around first, giving defenders a distinct advantage which is only fair: if you managed to conquer that base before you have the upper hand in defending it.
Also EVE Online does that masterfully imo. To take down a player-built station you have to bring in the dreadnoughts, massive spaceships firing cannons that can only be aimed at practically non-moving targets. it also takes hours, time during which the dreadnought itself must be defended and it is incredibly expensive.


Are you thinking "military camps", "supply lines" and "cannons" yet? I think you should.


* I changed the name here to convey the clear meaning that you in some way "have" to achieve the secondary objective before the primary, or at least it makes things simpler.

it looks like idea taken from game called Archage
same cannons ,or how to say trebuchets,military camps,supply lines.
Are you going to play world mmo with killing BOTS or Salem ?

I have to say this is rather quickly getting away from what salem should be about (witch craft and pioneering) to something a bit more military and tactical. I am all for a simple intel network, but not some complicated system of control points.

Scilly_guy wrote:I have to say this is rather quickly getting away from what salem should be about (witch craft and pioneering) to something a bit more military and tactical. I am all for a simple intel network, but not some complicated system of control points.

I see your point but... has it ever really been? I mean, there is pvp and towns but no witches...
I'm not trying to invalidate your argument, just really confused.

For a game about witches to work you must basically have two factions: the pioneers and witches. Those two faction should then have an impicit or explicit agenda, they could be fighting for territory or fame or it could be as simple are pioneers are hunters and witches are hunted.

Am I totally blind or nothing of the above made its way into the game? Not even the "about" page of site says much about it, where you could easly mistake them for a high end mob.


I can see why you say I'm going off the "intended" track for Salem (even if not off topic) but are you sure the type of game we are playing now isn't already off track compared to what you are referring to?

Do you know where can I find a clearer statement from the previous devs about the witches role and gameplay? Cause JC says "I'll give you witches" like everyone is expecting them (Yes, I know, game's title says "witches", but...).