Raid Mechanics

Forum for suggesting changes to Salem.

Re: Raid Mechanics

Postby Taipion » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:05 am

Andromedan wrote:
Taipion wrote:
Andromedan wrote:It does not have any details worked out because I'm not knowledgeable enough to work them out. I'm suggesting to alter the raid mechanics during the bloodmoon. For it to affect pclaim and town size is just my idea to add some balance to it. I'd like to hear other possibilities, unless the initial concept is flawed.

Well, let me just repeat the question:

Why would you think that "bigger" and "better defended" towns should be more penalized than small settlements?
Do you think a lot of work (to build a defence) is worth less than a little work?


Because such a mechanic could actually mean that twice as much isn't necessarily twice as good.


Now that's a start, but please give a little more detail how "much work" is not worth more than "little work".
Getting penalized more for doing it right sounds ...counter intuitive.

But then again, Dallane is probably spot on in this topic.
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Re: Raid Mechanics

Postby Judaism » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:26 am

As the idea on its own is not too bad, I mean certain days/periods to have more or less risks is not horrible.
Ultimately tho, a progressive raid system is the only way forward to break the larger towns and such.
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Re: Raid Mechanics

Postby nosfirebird » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:44 am

+1 to progressive raid system

but it really doesnt matter since devs arnt working on the project.
also wipe prov make it 15-20% smaller to breath new life into the game and also fix pvp the ping situation needs to be resolved
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Re: Raid Mechanics

Postby Andromedan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:02 am

Taipion wrote:
Andromedan wrote:Because such a mechanic could actually mean that twice as much isn't necessarily twice as good.


Now that's a start, but please give a little more detail how "much work" is not worth more than "little work".
Getting penalized more for doing it right sounds ...counter intuitive.

But then again, Dallane is probably spot on in this topic.


Like Dallane is saying, I have no experience with the system. It's not my place to work out details. However, it does not take an expert to possibly make a shot in the right direction.

Not agreeing with being penalized for doing more work is a matter of opinion, not in fact retarded. In a way braziers and torchposts already work like that, unless they crit. With what I'm suggesting doing twice the work will for example get you 1.6 times more effectiveness, not 2 times more, and doing 3 times more work only 2.3, etc. In a couple of years some folks will have 3000 law and lore, and 4 iron walls with 10 brick around their base. Having no penalties at all for growing simply means there's the potential to be indestructible, which as I understand it is undesirable in the context of Salem.

I'm not sure the problem could be fixed by powering up the raider, as that would still put the newer players at a greater disadvantage. Hence my suggestion to use the bloodmoon to penalize growth.
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Re: Raid Mechanics

Postby Taipion » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:00 pm

Andromedan wrote:
Taipion wrote:
Andromedan wrote:Because such a mechanic could actually mean that twice as much isn't necessarily twice as good.


Now that's a start, but please give a little more detail how "much work" is not worth more than "little work".
Getting penalized more for doing it right sounds ...counter intuitive.

But then again, Dallane is probably spot on in this topic.


Like Dallane is saying, I have no experience with the system. It's not my place to work out details. However, it does not take an expert to possibly make a shot in the right direction.

Not agreeing with being penalized for doing more work is a matter of opinion, not in fact retarded. In a way braziers and torchposts already work like that, unless they crit. With what I'm suggesting doing twice the work will for example get you 1.6 times more effectiveness, not 2 times more, and doing 3 times more work only 2.3, etc. In a couple of years some folks will have 3000 law and lore, and 4 iron walls with 10 brick around their base. Having no penalties at all for growing simply means there's the potential to be indestructible, which as I understand it is undesirable in the context of Salem.

I'm not sure the problem could be fixed by powering up the raider, as that would still put the newer players at a greater disadvantage. Hence my suggestion to use the bloodmoon to penalize growth.


"in a couple of years" is incorrect, that already exists.

And that a defence made by a whole group of competent players over the course of months or years is "indestructible" to a single raider or a group of scrubs is not just fine but common sense.

No place in salem is technically "un-raidable", full stop.
Though, given the current player numbers, yes, as you would, for some better defended towns, need a rather large group of active and competent players,
outnumbering or "zerging" someone down is a thing that would work here just as well as almost everywhere else, you'd just need to have considerably more players than those defending.

But then again you are throwing wild (and vastly unfinished and undetailed) suggestions into a system that you have no idea of,
a system that needs a few more basic fixes (like the drain-while-eating-exploit, and advanced variations of that) before even thinking of balancing it right (no juda-wants-easymode-raiding, ofc),
way before even thinking of adding "fun features" like what you are suggesting here.
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Re: Raid Mechanics

Postby Andromedan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:41 pm

Taipion wrote:And that a defence made by a whole group of competent players over the course of months or years is "indestructible" to a single raider or a group of scrubs is not just fine but common sense.


I couldn't agree more. In an extremely slow-paced game we should have extremely slow-paced raiding imo.

Taipion wrote:No place in salem is technically "un-raidable", full stop.
Though, given the current player numbers, yes, as you would, for some better defended towns, need a rather large group of active and competent players,
outnumbering or "zerging" someone down is a thing that would work here just as well as almost everywhere else, you'd just need to have considerably more players than those defending.


So, after 10 years of building defenses, it is still not just technically, but reasonably raidable by a large group of competent players?

Taipion wrote:But then again you are throwing wild (and vastly unfinished and undetailed) suggestions into a system that you have no idea of,
a system that needs a few more basic fixes (like the drain-while-eating-exploit, and advanced variations of that) before even thinking of balancing it right (no juda-wants-easymode-raiding, ofc),
way before even thinking of adding "fun features" like what you are suggesting here.


I believe it's the missing piece in the raiding and bloodmoon mechanic, as it is now. I won't deny that I am possibly missing important details, but so far it seems that we are simply disagreeing on certain things.
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Re: Raid Mechanics

Postby Chrumps » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:47 pm

Find a way for two players, who do not even log in at the same time, to have a meaningful fight in Salem and you will solve majority of pvp balancing problems.

That is because all the pvp rope pulling boils down to who must spend more time guarding the base or the 'siege camp' (tbf or whatever). So we land in a 'sweet spot' where raiding is still boring as hell and counterproductive while the victim is ***** nonetheless, resulting in lose-lose scenario.
Haven nidbanes are, maybe, step in the right direction but still far from complete solution.
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Re: Raid Mechanics

Postby Taipion » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:59 pm

Chrumps wrote:Find a way for two players, who do not even log in at the same time, to have a meaningful fight in Salem and you wiil solve majority of pvp balancing problems.

That is because all the pvp rope pulling boils down to who must spend more time guarding the base or the 'siege camp' (tbf or whatever). So we land in a 'sweet spot' where raiding is still boring as hell and counterproductive while the victim is ***** nonetheless, resulting in lose-lose scenario.
Haven nidbanes are, maybe, step in the right direction but still far from complete solution.


This problem is mostly due to lower player numbers compared to ...say... EVE, where any big group though has it's "prime times" but is able to act at any given time, yet,
the mechanics how to help engage players in pvp are there in EVE, and they are quite good for that purpose,
some of that would be pretty easy to take over to salem, or partly already is the same as there, like some of the TbF,
but there are still a lot of things missing to make it actually work good,
and adding those things is, from what I remember, not really popular because:
- everyone believes to be getting the short end => against it by all means
- does not like the person who suggested it => against it by all means
- did not understand it correctly due to bad explanation or bad understanding => against it by all means
- is only here for trolling anyways => against it by all means
- hates this game for whatever reason and wants it to just die => against it by all means
- ...
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Re: Raid Mechanics

Postby gorniksam » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:14 pm

previous mechanics of raiding was way better, but Devs and others made game more for carebears
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Re: Raid Mechanics

Postby Chrumps » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:04 pm

Taipion wrote:This problem is mostly due to lower player numbers [...]

Let's design rules for playerbase size that is not here ...
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