Scents rework

Forum for suggesting changes to Salem.

Re: Scents rework

Postby Judaism » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:04 am

Chrumps wrote:It is the pvp part of player base who complain about people not using higher bile chars outside their walls. So, well, pick up your **** together and decide if you want to encourage or discourage the alts game.


Sure but I don't think that has very much to do with scents at all. I've read the idea and personally I am not opposed against the entire idea to balance the scent/tracking system a little bit. That being said as it is right now, raiding is horribly broken and reworking scents at this stage is fairly pointless.

The majority of the scents on valuable characters are always being covered and therefore are pretty much unobtainable anyway.
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Re: Scents rework

Postby Chrumps » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:39 am

There is a whole bunch of problems locking with each other and I do not see how the raiding can be improved in a way that is satisfactory for both sides if the change would not affect multiple aspects of crime.
- We cannot have easier wall breaking because it leads to to wiping bases
- We cannot leave raided bases not wiped because we will leave scents in open
- We cannot have TBC removed because that will lead to some crimes being unpunishable if the criminal hides behind multiple walls (think: famous 19 walls of Vatican City)
etc..

I am trying to separate parts of it to focus discussion on certain aspect of it as much as it can be isolated from other aspects. Voices like "this is pointless because of other parts" simply create a vicious circle of impotence. Sure, at some stage all parts must be coordinated together but it is easier when you see split the system into detailed parts plus some general picture without details.

One of crime rework aspects is to provide a scent system where the criminal can accept some scents being left accessible and actually used, but the severity of the outcome would depend on victims skills and/or ability of calling skilled friends and on criminal skill and willingness to cover such scents without wiping the base.

One of intermediate objectives when designing any game system is to provide way of tweaking things by just a few percent rather than being left with ON-OFF options only which totally sway the balance towards one of another side.
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Re: Scents rework

Postby Judaism » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:09 pm

Chrumps wrote:I am trying to separate parts of it to focus discussion on certain aspect of it as much as it can be isolated from other aspects. Voices like "this is pointless because of other parts" simply create a vicious circle of impotence. Sure, at some stage all parts must be coordinated together but it is easier when you see split the system into detailed parts plus some general picture without details.


Like I said, I don't see scents having a large impact to the current situation. With the departure of Darwoth and the small remainder of the current playerbase scents do hardly affect competitive players. They will always cover their scents, they will always keep their character online and they will utilize lillypad vaults. A scent rework therefore is fairly pointless both the stockades and the TBC's mainly target the newer/careless players.

I liked the old system were rangers would gain raid benefits when they collected scents of criminals, the passive punishment system is just an additional dull threshold. An active ranger system, alongside a scent rework sounds way better to me. But it remains the same, in order for any of that to work we need significant changes for raiders first. I do agree that we need to tackle the problem one part a time, but with the current activity regarding crimes this should come afterwards.

Chrumps wrote:- We cannot have easier wall breaking because it leads to to wiping bases
- We cannot leave raided bases not wiped because we will leave scents in open
- We cannot have TBC removed because that will lead to some crimes being unpunishable if the criminal hides behind multiple walls (think: famous 19 walls of Vatican City)
etc..


None of the things you listed were part of the game prior to MM take-over of Salem. At any point in the game existence it was more active than it is right now, so i don't see why we can't change things once again. We have been stuck with permanent changes and the developers have been completely unwilling to balance the mechanics, they never removed or adjusted raiding mechanics despite the backlash they had in the community.

To me it always will requires constant tweaking and adjusting, that is why Haven wipes every few years. Currently Salem's raid system is based upon information, stats and bases from 2014. This is despite that the game has vastly changed and many new mechanics have been added in every field other than raiding. They were willing to add new types of defensive structures, additional punishment systems, new type of walls, a complete PvP revamp and so many other things.

Without a proper raid system players like me will simply keep ignoring this game and most of this game really is based upon that, without those aspects the game will continue to slowely die. At least thats the way I see it, that is the entire purpose of this game, it is why people continue to add layers and sections to their bases and continue their progression. Without that, this game is literally nothing more than farmville since it barely has PVE content aswell.

Obviously by now, most of the remaining player-base likes the current game. They have not to worry about anything and can casually play this game without any of those risks advertised by the original game. But the fact remains that any rework will be meaningless until we have an active game again where people are willing to commit the time, they are willing to ranger people down and they are willing to PvP.
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Re: Scents rework

Postby Ronch » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:12 pm

When a criminal is bailed out from the stocks, do they auto teleport to their homestead ?
Or are they just released near the stocks in Town ?

The reason I ask is 1st, I don't know, and 2nd, because if a player (criminal or not) is willing to put enough energy and time into building so many layers of walls to protect their self, then he/she deserves that afforded protection from those layers.
...But, away around this wall-layer tactic that criminals can use to avoid justice, could be to bring charges first, wait for them to be bailed out, then immediately snatch him/her while still in town with a lasso, or implement a (no-scent) tar-n-feather mechanic to drastically slow the movement of players who still have active scents and then upon being bailed out, players could tar-n-feather them to easily haul them to player's vigilante justice.
...Or just add an added option inside of the TBC feature to bring justice to a criminal by summoning them to Town to be tarred-n-feathered, rather than summoning them to their homestead.

I am assuming that a player who is so deep in crime to hide behind layers upon layers of walls will have more than one scent dropped which is still active, hence bring charges first, then snatch them near the stocks if or when they are bailed out.
...Just an idea, don't hate on me for being a noob, I enjoy the game and want to see it grow into something that PvP and PvE minded players can both enjoy on Salem's main server.

Also, lilypad vaults will be moot once bridges are implemented into the game.

BTW: I still think that tracking needs additional cost added to it, whether it be an added skill requirement, or added humor drain. (I have not read a valid argument against it here yet)
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Re: Scents rework

Postby Chrumps » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:11 pm

Judaism wrote:They will always cover their scents, they will always keep their character online and they will utilize lillypad vaults. A scent rework therefore is fairly pointless both the stockades and the TBC's mainly target the newer/careless players.

So you admit you are able to raid with impunity and you just want to be able to raid more bases with impunity.
I pointed out numerous times that ability to always cover scents cheaply is unbalanced and should be removed. I am less opposed to keeping characters online, I somewhat like it because it comes with maintenance cost (tobacco).

Judaism wrote:I liked the old system were rangers would gain raid benefits when they collected scents of criminals, the passive punishment system is just an additional dull threshold. An active ranger system, alongside a scent rework sounds way better to me. But it remains the same, in order for any of that to work we need significant changes for raiders first.

Good.
Judaism wrote:I do agree that we need to tackle the problem one part a time, but with the current activity regarding crimes this should come afterwards.

I was talking about discussing one problem at a time to avoid derails like this one but if changes are applied partially it will result in massive ****.

Judaism wrote:None of the things you listed were part of the game prior to MM take-over of Salem. At any point in the game existence it was more active than it is right now, so i don't see why we can't change things once again. We have been stuck with permanent changes and the developers have been completely unwilling to balance the mechanics, they never removed or adjusted raiding mechanics despite the backlash they had in the community.

You cannot roll back stats inflation. There is no return.

Judaism wrote:To me it always will requires constant tweaking and adjusting, that is why Haven wipes every few years.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Most of Haven wipes happened because of data corruption, duplicating items and such. The fact Providence was not wiped since 2013 is a great success.
I do support the idea of having expedition server which is periodically reset. I see that a part of playerbase would like it more than a permanent server.
Periodically reset server is completely different game and requires different strategies. It's fine to have two games at the cost of developing one.

Judaism wrote:Currently Salem's raid system is based upon information, stats and bases from 2014. This is despite that the game has vastly changed and many new mechanics have been added in every field other than raiding. They were willing to add new types of defensive structures, additional punishment systems, new type of walls, a complete PvP revamp and so many other things.

Well, that actually makes raiding easier because throw-away criminals are effectively cheaper.

Judaism wrote:Without a proper raid system players like me will simply keep ignoring this game and most of this game really is based upon that, without those aspects the game will continue to slowely die. At least thats the way I see it, that is the entire purpose of this game, it is why people continue to add layers and sections to their bases and continue their progression.


That's because you want to focus on this particular aspect of the game. There are more ways to play it.
I prefer to see this game in terms of ecological system where raiders play the role of carnivores and farmers play the role of herbivores. In that perspective there must be way more herbivores than carnivores to upkeep the population. Also it is when herbivores population shrinks the carnivores begin to die as well. That's a quite difficult system to manually control.

Judaism wrote:[..]this game is literally nothing more than farmville since it barely has PVE content aswell.

Obviously by now, most of the remaining player-base likes the current game.

It is quite playable and there is a lot of contents to see. No reason to cry.
Judaism wrote:They have not to worry about anything and can casually play this game without any of those risks advertised by the original game. But the fact remains that any rework will be meaningless until we have an active game again where people are willing to commit the time, they are willing to ranger people down and they are willing to PvP.

You might not realize that but over 5 years span people grew older and for most of them life changed and they have less time. A game catered for adults shall not punish casual play and shall not require more than 2 hours of gameplay daily. Otherwise it will lose competition vs reality.

By the way that means the idea that taking part in pvp requires 24/7 attention is a total ****. But solving fights between people who do not even log on at the same time is a separate issue.
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Re: Scents rework

Postby lachlaan » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:14 pm

The point of tracking in its current form was, I think, to allow newbies that got rekt to at the very least have a location of their assailants to feed to rangers. It is the most enfuriating thing to have newbies ask for help and not at all contribute to the process, so if you just want to take the whole revenge factor out of it then you're left with big guys farming ninja characters and laughing at newbies that would get steamrolled consistently. Tracking in its current form isn't what it used to be though on account of how the whole raiding mechanic works though, but what you're proposing expects the game to never have new players that want revenge.

tl;dr shut up claeyt.
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Re: Scents rework

Postby Ronch » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:27 pm

lachlaan wrote:The point of tracking in its current form was, I think, to allow newbies that got rekt to at the very least have a location of their assailants to feed to rangers. It is the most enfuriating thing to have newbies ask for help and not at all contribute to the process, so if you just want to take the whole revenge factor out of it then you're left with big guys farming ninja characters and laughing at newbies that would get steamrolled consistently. Tracking in its current form isn't what it used to be though on account of how the whole raiding mechanic works though, but what you're proposing expects the game to never have new players that want revenge.

tl;dr shut up claeyt.

Voluntarily turning tracking off n on periodically while hunting a criminal to minimize it's humor drain is the simplest option to address your concerns.
An addition synergistic option to that, would be to also have picked up scents (not evidence) last longer time-wise.

As it is now, it is to easy to leave tracking always turned on IMO. ...Why? is because I tracked a scent for almost two hours with a 2 day old new character without any specific-prerequisite skills and no humor drain.

Also, before even picking up a scent, noobs can easily come to the forums or go to discord to request assistance from a Ranger.
We could even create a dedicated sub-forum here to request Ranger help.
Last edited by Ronch on Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scents rework

Postby Dallane » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:52 pm

Ronch wrote:Also, lilypad vaults will be moot once bridges are implemented into the game.


If I remember correctly this is something that isn't really possible or would be extremely time consuming to figure out. I can't remember if it was JC or loftar talking about this last.
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Re: Scents rework

Postby belgear » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:56 pm

Ronch wrote:When a criminal is bailed out from the stocks, do they auto teleport to their homestead ?
Or are they just released near the stocks in Town ?

The reason I ask is 1st, I don't know, and 2nd, because if a player (criminal or not) is willing to put enough energy and time into building so many layers of walls to protect their self, then he/she deserves that afforded protection from those layers.
...But, away around this wall-layer tactic that criminals can use to avoid justice, could be to bring charges first, wait for them to be bailed out, then immediately snatch him/her while still in town with a lasso, or implement a (no-scent) tar-n-feather mechanic to drastically slow the movement of players who still have active scents and then upon being bailed out, players could tar-n-feather them to easily haul them to player's vigilante justice.
...Or just add an added option inside of the TBC feature to bring justice to a criminal by summoning them to Town to be tarred-n-feathered, rather than summoning them to their homestead.

I am assuming that a player who is so deep in crime to hide behind layers upon layers of walls will have more than one scent dropped which is still active, hence bring charges first, then snatch them near the stocks if or when they are bailed out.
...Just an idea, don't hate on me for being a noob, I enjoy the game and want to see it grow into something that PvP and PvE minded players can both enjoy on Salem's main server.

Also, lilypad vaults will be moot once bridges are implemented into the game.

BTW: I still think that tracking needs additional cost added to it, whether it be an added skill requirement, or added humor drain. (I have not read a valid argument against it here yet)
Man, it is hard to take you seriously when you obviously have no idea how the mechanics you are offering input on work.


But, to answer your edited-in "BTW"
The reason that scents should just stay the same is because it is the easiest part of the justice process. A noob can find where their attacker lives, can then decide if they A: want to try and take them on themselves B: want to get help, people being more inclined to help if they do not have to run through the woods for 4 hours C: maybe they just want to wait until they can bring their own justice down the line. No matter the case, a noob is capable of being a part of the justice process. Scents will CONTINUE TO GET COVERED, EVEN IF IT WERE REWORKED. (the whole reason the change was proposed in the first place was to get people to leave unguarded scents. It just won't happen. Not in any situation where they can cover them, anyway. Unless they just don't care about the character, at that point why offer them an additional layer of protection?

Getting justice already requires MANY skills and MUCH time. Adding another layer of complication there is just silly and isn't 'fun'
If anything instead of reworking those, maybe rework the TBC process so that the "layers of defense" a raider has protecting their HS actually means something.\

P.S. Lilypads ARE the bridges.
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Re: Scents rework

Postby Ronch » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:58 pm

Dallane wrote:
Ronch wrote:Also, lilypad vaults will be moot once bridges are implemented into the game.


If I remember correctly this is something that isn't really possible or would be extremely time consuming to figure out. I can't remember if it was JC or loftar talking about this last.

I thought that the last time JC address bridges on the forums, he said he was still currently working on it.
Although I haven't re-read his last post on bridges recently to see if it still looks promising or not.
...I'll look it up, thanks.
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