Let's have that political discussion.

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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby MagicManICT » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:36 pm

Claeyt wrote:I got 2 PM's from certain unnamed jackasses showing money shots to the hair from this post. Kinda sick but somebody out there laughed. :D


If the mod team were to see a report on something like this, we would have to act on it. Just because a PM is sent doesn't mean the rules don't exist. Consider this a general public warning on the matter.

Translation: if you and your buddy want to send porn back and forth to each other, fine, as long as nobody complains. however, the rules do explicitly state to "keep it friendly and readable." Posting porn is explicitly mentioned, too. Sending unwanted photos to somebody is not friendly and would get a very stern action from me, at least. (I wouldn't hesitate at making it a permaban to start and then working back from there after discussing it with other mods and jorb.)

If anyone wishes to discuss this further, please do so in the Mod discussion thread.
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Ikpeip » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:55 pm

Claeyt wrote:
I've shown plenty of supporting data while I've had to look at your graphs and data from the Heritage Foundation, FreedomWorks, and other Koch Brother funded studys that are simply manipulated lies.

You haven't shown that a single one of those sources are lies. You've claimed they're lies, but have not been able to support that claim. You can't make something true just by repeating it.

Claeyt wrote:
The CBO conclusion was right there. I don't know why you couldn't find it.

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/42729

The study went to 2007 and clearly showed a drop in the shares of overall income for every tax percentile but the richest one. After 2007 Real Wages and Real Income dropped like a rock down to Reagan levels for the lowest percentiles. The entire reason for the study was to show the effects of Reaganomics.

Again, that link does not make the conclusion you're saying it makes. Which is why you still can't quote it. You've already been shown that a change in income distribution does not mean there was a gain in one income bracket at the cost of another. The CBO conclusion does not mention Reagan tax cuts, and covers a period which extends far beyond Reagan's presidency.

Trying to blame the failures of the current administration's economic policies on Reagan is reaching a bit too far.

Claeyt wrote:
The Hyper partisan right-wing sites you're posting are in most cases providing their own data from studies they've paid for themselves. If they do use outside data they have a stated partisan goal to manipulate that data to their conservative beliefs.

The sources are listed on the charts themselves. They include the Bureau of the Census, the Economic Report of the President, the U.S. Department of Energy, and the U.S. Department of Labor. None of them are using data from studies they've paid for themselves.

If they're "manipulating data to their conservative beliefs" you should be able to point out that manipulation. Your inability to refute these sources stems from the weakness of your position.

Claeyt wrote:
Just....stop....stop trying to defend your mistake here. In your sentence 'accelerating' is an adjective describing the noun 'trend' which is being acted up by the verb 'reversing'. You are wrong. Normally I could give a **** about grammar on the internet, but you're sentence is making it sound like Reagan reversed the drop in wages when really the drop simply slowed.

It's not my job to teach you math - if you're not grasping it by this point, you're not going to. Instead, I'll just point out that in your desperation to pick over word choice you've admitted the underlying point I'm making is correct - Reagan's policies had an immediate beneficial impact on real wages, and stopped the freefall that started under Carter.

Claeyt wrote:
I got 2 PM's from certain unnamed jackasses showing money shots to the hair from this post. Kinda sick but somebody out there laughed. :D

If that's how you and your buddies like to spend their free time, that's on you.

Faithfully,

-Paul the Paymaster
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Claeyt » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:51 pm

Ikpeip wrote:
Claeyt wrote:
I've shown plenty of supporting data while I've had to look at your graphs and data from the Heritage Foundation, FreedomWorks, and other Koch Brother funded studys that are simply manipulated lies.

You haven't shown that a single one of those sources are lies. You've claimed they're lies, but have not been able to support that claim. You can't make something true just by repeating it.

That you think any Koch funded sources are "True" is exactly the problem here. You really need to stop believing all their lies Paul.

Ikpeip wrote:
Claeyt wrote:
The CBO conclusion was right there. I don't know why you couldn't find it.

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/42729

The study went to 2007 and clearly showed a drop in the shares of overall income for every tax percentile but the richest one. After 2007 Real Wages and Real Income dropped like a rock down to Reagan levels for the lowest percentiles. The entire reason for the study was to show the effects of Reaganomics.

Again, that link does not make the conclusion you're saying it makes. Which is why you still can't quote it. You've already been shown that a change in income distribution does not mean there was a gain in one income bracket at the cost of another. The CBO conclusion does not mention Reagan tax cuts, and covers a period which extends far beyond Reagan's presidency.

Yeah, because a study of the effects of taxes on income from 1979 to 2007 that was actually ordered by congress to directly test the effects of Trickle Down Economics has nothing to do with the economy or Reagan. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Ikpeip wrote:
Claeyt wrote:
The Hyper partisan right-wing sites you're posting are in most cases providing their own data from studies they've paid for themselves. If they do use outside data they have a stated partisan goal to manipulate that data to their conservative beliefs.

The sources are listed on the charts themselves. They include the Bureau of the Census, the Economic Report of the President, the U.S. Department of Energy, and the U.S. Department of Labor. None of them are using data from studies they've paid for themselves.

If they're "manipulating data to their conservative beliefs" you should be able to point out that manipulation. Your inability to refute these sources stems from the weakness of your position.

The great thing about arguing against "studies" or "data" from right wing conservative think tanks is that they state that they're trying to advance a conservative philosophy by "showing the data in a different light" right there in their mission statement. Non-partisan sources are always going to trump them.

Heritage Foundation:

"The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institution—a think tank—whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."

That you're quoting those sources is enough of a reason to laugh at your argument.

Ikpeip wrote:
Claeyt wrote:
Just....stop....stop trying to defend your mistake here. In your sentence 'accelerating' is an adjective describing the noun 'trend' which is being acted up by the verb 'reversing'. You are wrong. Normally I could give a **** about grammar on the internet, but you're sentence is making it sound like Reagan reversed the drop in wages when really the drop simply slowed.

It's not my job to teach you math - if you're not grasping it by this point, you're not going to. Instead, I'll just point out that in your desperation to pick over word choice you've admitted the underlying point I'm making is correct - Reagan's policies had an immediate beneficial impact on real wages, and stopped the freefall that started under Carter.

It's not my job to teach you English - if you're not grasping it by this point, you're not going to ever write well. Instead I'll just point out that in your desperation to sound intelligent, you've tried to defend an embarrassingly bad sentence structure error and a massively disproven and failed philosophy on tax cuts for the rich.

Ikpeip wrote:
Claeyt wrote:
I got 2 PM's from certain unnamed jackasses showing money shots to the hair from this post. Kinda sick but somebody out there laughed. :D

If that's how you and your buddies like to spend their free time, that's on you.

One of them was a hand drawn cartoon of you, me and the chief. :lol:
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Ikpeip » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:44 am

Claeyt wrote:
That you think any Koch funded sources are "True" is exactly the problem here. You really need to stop believing all their lies Paul.

Point out where they're lying in the charts, graphs, or links I've provided. "They can't be right because they disagree with me" isn't going to cut it.

Claeyt wrote:
Yeah, because a study of the effects of taxes on income from 1979 to 2007 that was actually ordered by congress to directly test the effects of Trickle Down Economics has nothing to do with the economy or Reagan. :roll: :roll: :roll:

So you're saying you can't quote where the CBO made the conclusion you said it did? Lying hack.

Claeyt wrote:
The great thing about arguing against "studies" or "data" from right wing conservative think tanks is that they state that they're trying to advance a conservative philosophy by "showing the data in a different light" right there in their mission statement. Non-partisan sources are always going to trump them.

Heritage Foundation:

"The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institution—a think tank—whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."

That you're quoting those sources is enough of a reason to laugh at your argument.

The data they're using is from neutral sources. You could try to counter their interpretations of their data, but instead you're trying to hand-wave it away because they disagree with you, and you're not smart enough to form a coherent argument. Your inability to form a rational response shows you're losing the debate.

You'll notice I haven't complained about you linking your left wing rags as sources - instead I've pointed out where they've made errors in their assessment, or (more often than not), where you've failed to comprehend what it is they're stating. The reason I haven't done so is because I can counter them with hard facts and data. That you can't respond in kind speaks volumes.

Claeyt wrote:
Ikpeip wrote:
Claeyt wrote:I got 2 PM's from certain unnamed jackasses showing money shots to the hair from this post. Kinda sick but somebody out there laughed. :D

If that's how you and your buddies like to spend their free time, that's on you.

One of them was a hand drawn cartoon of you, me and the chief. :lol:

This came up in the 33 forum as well, so I'll restate my policy. I don't mind if you fantasize about me (I know your type has been aching for strong, dominant men ever since Fifty Shades of Grey), but I don't want to hear about it.

Faithfully,

-Paul the Paymaster
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Claeyt » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:15 pm

Ikpeip wrote:
Claeyt wrote:
That you think any Koch funded sources are "True" is exactly the problem here. You really need to stop believing all their lies Paul.

Point out where they're lying in the charts, graphs, or links I've provided. "They can't be right because they disagree with me" isn't going to cut it.

They can't be right because they've stated in their principles that they're actively promoting an agenda.

Ikpeip wrote:
Claeyt wrote:
Yeah, because a study of the effects of taxes on income from 1979 to 2007 that was actually ordered by congress to directly test the effects of Trickle Down Economics has nothing to do with the economy or Reagan. :roll: :roll: :roll:

So you're saying you can't quote where the CBO made the conclusion you said it did? Lying hack.[/color]

I just posted the conclusion. Read it yourself. :roll:

Ikpeip wrote:
Claeyt wrote:
The great thing about arguing against "studies" or "data" from right wing conservative think tanks is that they state that they're trying to advance a conservative philosophy by "showing the data in a different light" right there in their mission statement. Non-partisan sources are always going to trump them.

Heritage Foundation:

"The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institution—a think tank—whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."

That you're quoting those sources is enough of a reason to laugh at your argument.

The data they're using is from neutral sources. You could try to counter their interpretations of their data, but instead you're trying to hand-wave it away because they disagree with you, and you're not smart enough to form a coherent argument. Your inability to form a rational response shows you're losing the debate.

You'll notice I haven't complained about you linking your left wing rags as sources - instead I've pointed out where they've made errors in their assessment, or (more often than not), where you've failed to comprehend what it is they're stating. The reason I haven't done so is because I can counter them with hard facts and data. That you can't respond in kind speaks volumes.

They're using the data from neutral sources that they agree with, not the whole data set which shows the truth. I've won this debate awhile ago.

I've actually been intentionally not posting left wing sources. I started posting them after your "3 of 4 Koch funded sources post". I could of course flood this argument with that. I actually edited out a pile of sources from Huffington Post and other like it because I didn't want their partisan arguments getting in my way like all those 'Heritage Foundation', 'FreedomWorks' studies got in yours. Again only the American right thinks that the New York times or Washington Post are left wing. The rest of the world thinks they're middle of the road.

Ikpeip wrote:This came up in the 33 forum as well, so I'll restate my policy. I don't mind if you fantasize about me (I know your type has been aching for strong, dominant men ever since Fifty Shades of Grey), but I don't want to hear about it.

I promised MagicMann I'd be good and that I wouldn't post the cartoon. :D
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Ikpeip » Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:31 pm

Claeyt wrote:
They can't be right because they've stated in their principles that they're actively promoting an agenda.

That's an irrational statement.

Are we free to dismiss out of hand anything from the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence because they are actively promoting an agenda?
How about any data linked or analyzed by Planned Parenthood?
Should unions be abolished because they are actively promoting a worker's rights agenda? How can we trust them to do what's right for society, when they're clearly biased?

Of course, the answer to all that above should be "no, that's ridiculous." I'm not a supporter of the Brady Campaign, Planned Parenthood, or Big Labor - but claiming that anything they post must be a lie because I don't agree with them would be the height of foolishness. I will argue against claims they make in error, but that argument still needs to be made.

Your response here illustrates that your political ideology is one formed from a combination of a desire to see yourself as superior to your fellow citizens, brainwashing, and a lack of intellectual curiosity. Your inability to comprehend and refute the positions of your opposition is not a sign of their weakness - it is a sign of yours.

Claeyt wrote:
I just posted the conclusion. Read it yourself. :roll:

No, you did not post any text from the CBO study you've linked that makes the conclusion you've claimed is being made. Lying hack.

Claeyt wrote:
I've actually been intentionally not posting left wing sources. I started posting them after your "3 of 4 Koch funded sources post". I could of course flood this argument with that. I actually edited out a pile of sources from Huffington Post and other like it because I didn't want their partisan arguments getting in my way like all those 'Heritage Foundation', 'FreedomWorks' studies got in yours. Again only the American right thinks that the New York times or Washington Post are left wing. The rest of the world thinks they're middle of the road.

You live in a fantasy world. The sources you have been linking are not unbiased, objective, middle-of-the road sources.
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/groseclose/Media.Bias.8.htm
There's a lot of good stuff in there, but here's a quick damnation of your claims:
A Measure of Media Bias, http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/facu ... Bias.8.htm wrote: Our results show a strong liberal bias. All of the news outlets except Fox News’ Special Report and the Washington Times received a score to the left of the average member of Congress. Consistent with many conservative critics, CBS Evening News and the New York Times received a score far left of center. Outlets such as the Washington Post, USA Today, NPR’s Morning Edition, NBC’s Nightly News and ABC’s World News Tonight were moderately left. The most centrist outlets (but still left-leaning) by our measure were the Newshour with Jim Lehrer, CNN’s NewsNight with Aaron Brown, and ABC’s Good Morning America. Fox News’ Special Report, while right of center, was closer to the center than any of the three major networks’ evening news broadcasts.

In addition to the Washington Post and the NY Times, you've also linked Alternet:
http://www.alternet.org/about wrote:AlterNet’s aim is to inspire action and advocacy on the environment, human rights and civil liberties, social justice, media, health care issues, and more.


Paul Krugman, who changes his positions based on which party is in the White House: http://econjwatch.org/file_download/430/BarkleyMay2010.pdf
The Guardian, a left-wing publication:
Ian Katz wrote:it is no secret we are a centre-left newspaper

(source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/16/uselections2004.usa2)

When you have linked neutral sources, you've claimed they're making conclusions they're not, and have not been able to quote the conclusions when called on it.

You'll notice though, that I didn't dismiss these sources because of their bias - rather I addressed the points they were trying to make, and countered them.

Your behavior in this thread had been intellectually lazy, dishonest, and generally inept.

Faithfully,

-Paul the Paymaster
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby MagicManICT » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:41 pm

I have to agree with PMP on the studies. It doesn't matter where the information comes from as long as the data is correct. As long as the data is correct, we can argue the conclusions till we're blue in the face or we come up with something in agreement. Some of the conclusions of the right wing I question just like I question some of the conclusions of the left. This is where my lack of economics expertise shows, but I don't have 6-8 years to 'waste' in school and another 10 years of life for a career arguing over something others would rather dedicate their lives to.
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby jorb » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:30 am

Personally I can only scoff at all attempts to transform the wondrously high-varied art of statecraft into some trite natural science of taxonomy and measurement. Good economic arguments are generally praxeological and apriori in nature, and, as with most other things that reminds one of civilization and culture, the 20th century has left such economic sciences mostly in shambles.

Were I to write some Gibbonesque 'Rise and Decline of the American Empire', I might perhaps be tempted to describe Ronald Ray-gun as a good emperor, but fundamentally I remain staunchly aligned against imperialism as such -- at least against such imperial ventures as are undertaken under the guise of being motivated by some ephemeral public good, or, worse yet, when propagandized as some sorts of samaritan acts undertaken only -- oh-so only -- in the best interests of the conquered. I'm also against Emperors, at least when they don the garbs and regalia of republican government.

Conquest as an honest and explicit motive I can at least respect. There is something very sound about an honest thief.

Speaking of theft: Occupy Wall S:t is in a sense a wonderful movement -- Wall S:t is comprised of conglomerates of crony capitalist, unlimited tenure bankster Megacorps in fundamental symbiosis with the omnipresent state, fed and nurtured by a thousand government privileges, contracts and bailouts, protected by draconian gubmint regulations on the freedom of enterprise, and certainly deserves nothing but to be occupied -- unfortunately Occupy is by and large comprised of latte communists and college leftist with BAs in Womyns studies and critical theory, merely on the prowl for free lunches and some great, petty little cause to take the boredom and ennui out of everyday life under modernity. Free lunches, of course, sounding the death knell of all great civilizations, se ex viz Rome. Panem et circenses -- bread and circuses -- you start feeding the mobs of the great cities, and little-by-little they swell and grow, 'til eventually they inevitably swell and grow only restless when the food -- or new tax cows to pay for it -- runs out. A Malthusian trap, and perhaps also some grand circle of life.

Debating American Puppidents in a spirit of partisanship is a meaningless exercise, as doing so necessarily implies ignoring the fundamental underlying unity of the political establishment, the political class, and Goldman Sachs' board of directors. The Bush family are a bunch of petro-corp thugs to be mentioned in the same breath as, say, the Corleones, and Oh'blamby mostly strikes me as a rather obvious Manchurian candidate for some forlorn communist putsch. Let no man, thus, fool himself into believing that democracy is in any way, shape or form an actual functioning system of government or a realistic alternative to anything. Democracy is entropy, tribalism, the very absence of constitutional government, and a mere prelude to anarchy and dictatorship, inevitably ending in bankruptcy when the public at one point or another discovers that it can vote and manipulate itself to largesse and a place by some cozy food trough, but frankly, small-dime welfare hustlers look down-right benign on an individual level when compared to the outright monstrosities of the financial sector and the megacorps. Looking at you, Monsanto, Haliburton, the Morgan banks, &c&c.

Five years with Bamby, eight with Bush? Who cares! Vote Cthulhu -- the stars are right!

Whoever wins; the wars, the creeping socialism, the surveillance, the drones, the false flags, the taxation, the deficits, the demagoguery of democracy, the culture of fornication, individual rights instead of civic duties, globalism, the war on drugs, the bailouts, the inflation, robbing Peter to pay Paul, feminism, the IRS, the NSA, the CIA, the culture of victimization, mass-immigration, multiculturalism and every other wicked and base scheme and implement to be hatched by the riddle-mages in that Babel-upon-the-Potomac that is Washington D.C., is dead set to continue until it all eventually ends in some pathetic rehash of the crisis of the 3rd century, after which we can all perhaps rest soundly for a couple of hundred years in the comforting umbra of a second dark age.

I try to be an optimist about these kinds of things: At least dark ages allow for ambition, something which egalitarian mass-democracy for its part dreads about as much as nature dreads a vacuum.

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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Claeyt » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:13 pm

jorb wrote:
Personally I can only scoff at all attempts to transform the wondrously high-varied art of statecraft into some trite natural science of taxonomy and measurement. Good economic arguments are generally praxeological and apriori in nature, and, as with most other things that reminds one of civilization and culture, the 20th century has left such economic sciences mostly in shambles.

Were I to write some Gibbonesque 'Rise and Decline of the American Empire', I might perhaps be tempted to describe Ronald Ray-gun as a good emperor, but fundamentally I remain staunchly aligned against imperialism as such -- at least against such imperial ventures as are undertaken under the guise of being motivated by some ephemeral public good, or, worse yet, when propagandized as some sorts of samaritan acts undertaken only -- oh-so only -- in the best interests of the conquered. I'm also against Emperors, at least when they don the garbs and regalia of republican government.

Conquest as an honest and explicit motive I can at least respect. There is something very sound about an honest thief.

Speaking of theft: Occupy Wall S:t is in a sense a wonderful movement -- Wall S:t is comprised of conglomerates of crony capitalist, unlimited tenure bankster Megacorps in fundamental symbiosis with the omnipresent state, fed and nurtured by a thousand government privileges, contracts and bailouts, protected by draconian gubmint regulations on the freedom of enterprise, and certainly deserves nothing but to be occupied -- unfortunately Occupy is by and large comprised of latte communists and college leftist with BAs in Womyns studies and critical theory, merely on the prowl for free lunches and some great, petty little cause to take the boredom and ennui out of everyday life under modernity. Free lunches, of course, sounding the death knell of all great civilizations, se ex viz Rome. Panem et circenses -- bread and circuses -- you start feeding the mobs of the great cities, and little-by-little they swell and grow, 'til eventually they inevitably swell and grow only restless when the food -- or new tax cows to pay for it -- runs out. A Malthusian trap, and perhaps also some grand circle of life.

Debating American Puppidents in a spirit of partisanship is a meaningless exercise, as doing so necessarily implies ignoring the fundamental underlying unity of the political establishment, the political class, and Goldman Sachs' board of directors. The Bush family are a bunch of petro-corp thugs to be mentioned in the same breath as, say, the Corleones, and Oh'blamby mostly strikes me as a rather obvious Manchurian candidate for some forlorn communist putsch. Let no man, thus, fool himself into believing that democracy is in any way, shape or form an actual functioning system of government or a realistic alternative to anything. Democracy is entropy, tribalism, the very absence of constitutional government, and a mere prelude to anarchy and dictatorship, inevitably ending in bankruptcy when the public at one point or another discovers that it can vote and manipulate itself to largesse and a place by some cozy food trough, but frankly, small-dime welfare hustlers look down-right benign on an individual level when compared to the outright monstrosities of the financial sector and the megacorps. Looking at you, Monsanto, Haliburton, the Morgan banks, &c&c.

Five years with Bamby, eight with Bush? Who cares! Vote Cthulhu -- the stars are right!

Whoever wins; the wars, the creeping socialism, the surveillance, the drones, the false flags, the taxation, the deficits, the demagoguery of democracy, the culture of fornication, individual rights instead of civic duties, globalism, the war on drugs, the bailouts, the inflation, robbing Peter to pay Paul, feminism, the IRS, the NSA, the CIA, the culture of victimization, mass-immigration, multiculturalism and every other wicked and base scheme and implement to be hatched by the riddle-mages in that Babel-upon-the-Potomac that is Washington D.C., is dead set to continue until it all eventually ends in some pathetic rehash of the crisis of the 3rd century, after which we can all perhaps rest soundly for a couple of hundred years in the comforting umbra of a second dark age.

I try to be an optimist about these kinds of things: At least dark ages allow for ambition, something which egalitarian mass-democracy for its part dreads about as much as nature dreads a vacuum.

#my10¢

There's the Jorb we know. At least he didn't mention the masons or the tri-lateral commission again. :D

First off it's good to see you understand exactly what Reagan and the Bush clan are. As for Obama I don't really understand your idea of him as a Manchurian Candidate which would mean that he's being used by a foreign power. His family history (and Clinton's for that matter) isn't one of privilege or power. It's of a moderate middle class family with a strange and unique addition and twist. You can say he was influenced by the American left and their philosophies to become who he was but you can't say he's supporting some mega-bank, defense contractor, oil company conglomerate like the past Republican presidents have.

Also your Sweden's not America. We have a long history of both immigration and multiculturalism (25% of America in 1776 was Black, and 5% was Native). It's not the same thing as Sweden. Our country was based on Immigration back to the first white man stepping on these shores. The only thing that's changed is the religion and the lack of witch burnings.

The rest of your ramblings speak for themselves. It's interesting to see you supporting Occupy Wall St. now. It's one of the great liberal movements of our age in my opinion and definitely changed the conversation for the better.

I'm going to let Steven Van Zandt respond to the rest of your post. :D

Read this Jorb if you want to see how a liberal guy uses the exact same ideas as you in a different way without hating the vast majority of people in general.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-van-zandt/democracy-in-america_b_1139463.html

Watch this to see your views reflected by the him on the left but with less bitterness and more music. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8WkPtQOWDk

....and he's even doing a massively funny new comedy in Norway which makes fun of the difference between Scandinavian countries and America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVGPRmXYOCY

long live Silvio.
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Snowpig » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:21 pm

Claeyt wrote:long live Silvio.


...I hope you do not mean Silvio Berlusconi...
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