Let's have that political discussion.

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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Ikpeip » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:45 am

Claeyt wrote:
The failures of Reagonomics along with it's little brother, 'the Bush Tax Cuts' is settled. You'll notice right there on the graph on the Wikipedia page the growth in income disparity and the death of the middle class. 90% of the median income and family wealth growth has gone to the rich since Reagan's tax cuts. We've lived in stagnant slow growth since more and more wealth has been frozen in the hands of the rich. Currently I pay twice as much in taxes as Mitt Romney and make much less. Reaganomics has failed. The CBO's report proves it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/21/opinion/21krugman.html

Ikpeip wrote:
Potjeh wrote:You know, I often do wonder why these intellectual giants even bother cooperating with the working class dregs rather than doing it all by themselves and getting all the profits :roll:

If you keep scapegoating them they just might do that.r

I knew you'd use this article the moment I read this argument with the Ayn Rand quote. I read this article when it came out and you're completely missing the point of why the company moved back to the states.

Yes, the company automated and eliminated positions just like every other manufacturer over the last 30 years. But the reasons they came back were more than that. It included stability of product, stability of politics and availability of energy for cheap electricity along with a lot of other reasons that our country provided.

They gave multiple communication, quality control and development issue examples as to why a better product is easier to make here. All of these had to do with location, communication options and a cultural divide with oversea manufacturers. They gave examples of the availability of the Internet, phone communications and travel options, all government regulated, supported and partially built aspects to their manufacturing center.

They gave the example of the stability of the American laws and regulations, and the country's safety as it compares to worker's rights in Bangladesh and management safety in Mexico. Our democracy is stronger than there and manufacturers realize this before they invest millions of dollars in production technology like this. This stability provided by the government is part of who we are as a nation and how strong our laws are for both worker safety during production and stability of the communities around their manufacturing center.

They also showed that although there are less workers the workers have to be better trained and make much more money than the workers of the 70's. They still save money but they have to count on the U.S. education system to partial train their workers and then they have to invest in the workers themselves. This is an example of the future of employee/company relationships in manufacturing and why we need to invest in greater educational options for people to get jobs like these.

All of this was a prime example of the German model of economic stability in manufacturing. Well trained workers with strong safety rights along with safe, stable investment in high tech manufacturing methods supported by the government and ready access to government supported communication, transportation methods and energy resources will lead to a better manufacturing method of production. It may be a little more expensive but it will be better quality and less risk than production in some 3rd world nation that hasn't implemented these laws, workers rights or aspects to production.

None of this would have been possible in the libertarian fantasy world of Ayn Rand's views on workers rights or the role of a democratic government in both providing for and regulating manufacturing and production.

-You failed to address the fact that your CBO link isn't what you say it is.
-You like to claim things are settled without any support. That doesn't work.
-Income disparity is not a metric of economic growth
-My response to you citing Paul Krugman as a reliable source is the same as these folks
-If you think manufacturer's aren't automating as a response to increased regulatory costs and obligations of using human labor, you're mistaken (but, we already knew that). Only one of us works in manufacturing, and it's not you.
-You lied when you claimed you pay twice as much in taxes as Mitt Romney. He paid $1.94 million in taxes in 2011. Did you?
-Putting your ***** in large font doesn't make it any more credible

Faithfully,

-Paul the Paymaster
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Claeyt » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:36 am

Ikpeip wrote:
Claeyt wrote:None of this would have been possible in the libertarian fantasy world of Ayn Rand's views on workers rights or the role of a democratic government in both providing for and regulating manufacturing and production.

-You failed to address the fact that your CBO link isn't what you say it is.
-You like to claim things are settled without any support. That doesn't work.
-Income disparity is not a metric of economic growth
-My response to you citing Paul Krugman as a reliable source is the same as these folks
-If you think manufacturer's aren't automating as a response to increased regulatory costs and obligations of using human labor, you're mistaken (but, we already knew that). Only one of us works in manufacturing, and it's not you.
-You lied when you claimed you pay twice as much in taxes as Mitt Romney. He paid $1.94 million in taxes in 2011. Did you?
-Putting your ***** in large font doesn't make it any more credible

-The CBO link study from that link is exactly what I said it is. Here's another part of that study for you.
http://cbo.gov/publication/42729
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/us/politics/top-earners-doubled-share-of-nations-income-cbo-says.html

-It's settled, Reaganomics is simply another dead idea that didn't work no matter how many times Rush Limbaugh says it does.

-Median income decline and income disparity is a result of the tax study not an indicator. Economic growth with no real growth in income or wealth for 95% of the people isn't economic growth for the country, it's something else.

-Since when is a Nobel prize winning economist not a reliable source. Just because some jackass insane right wing crowd doesn't believe him, that doesn't mean anything. As for Al Gore winning it for promoting the study of climate change or Arrafat for coming to a peaceful agreement with Israel that didn't last due to both his and Israel's fault: It just goes to show how far American Conservative philosophy is outside the mainstream of Nobel Prize Voters (generally leaders in their fields), European Political Leaders, World opinion and slowly but surely the opinion of the American People.

-I've worked in manufacturing before when I was younger. Automating is more than just fighting labor rules it's also about efficiency and growth in other ways. Yes some automating is one result of having decent labor laws and working environments for people. Another is globalization and a political push by the right and the rich towards fighting labor laws. Automating is part of the evolution of manufacturing and is the easiest and fairest of all those to address labor costs. I have no problem with it. It increases pay for the workers left and leads to new industries. Supporting globalization without legal equality in workplace laws and fighting organized labor laws at home are abhorrent and will be fought every step of the way politically, through denial of purchase and in the workplace. Take that as a lesson back to your factory management.

-You're right. I should have said I pay twice as much in taxes as a percentage of my income as Mitt Romney does. In fact a woman with 4 children on welfare and food stamps with a part time job pays more in taxes as a percentage of income than he does when you factor in sales tax, payroll tax and other commodity taxes on products she buys.

-Putting your ***** in small font doesn't make it any more credible just harder to see. Mine is at least fighting for the human condition and progressive cultural and economic shifts for the poor and middle class. All you're supporting is greed and a right wing libertarian hereditary oligarchy.
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Potjeh » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:19 am

And I bite my thumb at thee as well, good sir.
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby jwhitehorn » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:43 am

Nice to see that claeyt is still a retard when it comes to politics. It can be comforting to know that some things never change.

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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Ikpeip » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:31 am

Claeyt wrote:
-The CBO link study from that link is exactly what I said it is. Here's another part of that study for you.
http://cbo.gov/publication/42729
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/us/politics/top-earners-doubled-share-of-nations-income-cbo-says.html

-It's settled, Reaganomics is simply another dead idea that didn't work no matter how many times Rush Limbaugh says it does.

-Median income decline and income disparity is a result of the tax study not an indicator. Economic growth with no real growth in income or wealth for 95% of the people isn't economic growth for the country, it's something else.

-Since when is a Nobel prize winning economist not a reliable source. Just because some jackass insane right wing crowd doesn't believe him, that doesn't mean anything. As for Al Gore winning it for promoting the study of climate change or Arrafat for coming to a peaceful agreement with Israel that didn't last due to both his and Israel's fault: It just goes to show how far American Conservative philosophy is outside the mainstream of Nobel Prize Voters (generally leaders in their fields), European Political Leaders, World opinion and slowly but surely the opinion of the American People.

-I've worked in manufacturing before when I was younger. Automating is more than just fighting labor rules it's also about efficiency and growth in other ways. Yes some automating is one result of having decent labor laws and working environments for people. Another is globalization and a political push by the right and the rich towards fighting labor laws. Automating is part of the evolution of manufacturing and is the easiest and fairest of all those to address labor costs. I have no problem with it. It increases pay for the workers left and leads to new industries. Supporting globalization without legal equality in workplace laws and fighting organized labor laws at home are abhorrent and will be fought every step of the way politically, through denial of purchase and in the workplace. Take that as a lesson back to your factory management.

-You're right. I should have said I pay twice as much in taxes as a percentage of my income as Mitt Romney does. In fact a woman with 4 children on welfare and food stamps with a part time job pays more in taxes as a percentage of income than he does when you factor in sales tax, payroll tax and other commodity taxes on products she buys.

-Putting your ***** in small font doesn't make it any more credible just harder to see. Mine is at least fighting for the human condition and progressive cultural and economic shifts for the poor and middle class. All you're supporting is greed and a right wing libertarian hereditary oligarchy.

-The article you link states "the rich" are increasing in their share of overall wealth. This still is not an indicator of economic growth or health. In your world it'd be better if we were all paupers, as long as we were all equally destitute.
-The only reason your taxes as a percentage of your income is twice Mitt Romney's is due to deductions for charity - twice as much as the $1.9 million he paid in taxes, which puts the combined amount he's "giving back to society" 50% higher, as a percentage of his total income, than yours.
-Nobel prizes are given out for political reasons, not for merit. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9603849/Nobel-Peace-Prize-the-ten-most-controversial-winners.html. Paul Krugman is a hack
-I never claimed automation was solely a response to overly burdensome regulations. I am claiming that overly burdensome regulations provide more of an incentive for automation, and increasing that burden will result in employers hiring less employees. I'm not claiming that's a bad thing, but it does run against your mob-rule desires.
-You claim to be "fighting for the human condition... for the poor and middle class" but you're not fighting for anything. You're advocating theft against productive members of society, to bribe unproductive members of society, to advance your political agenda. When you fight for something, you put your own skin in the game.

Faithfully,

-Paul the Paymaster
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby jwhitehorn » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:51 am

Ikpeip wrote:-You claim to be "fighting for the human condition... for the poor and middle class" but you're not fighting for anything. You're advocating theft against productive members of society, to bribe unproductive members of society, to advance your political agenda. When you fight for something, you put your own skin in the game.

Faithfully,

-Paul the Paymaster


Your kidding yourself if you think Claeyt is anything but poor and uneducated. He is fighting for what he believes will help future generations avoid the outcome of his own ineptitude. A misplaced effort sure, but I wouldn't go as far to say that his political agenda is outside of his own immediate sphere of knowledge and experiences and therefore, he very much has skin in this "game" he is playing and system he is abusing. It is his beliefs and attitude that have secured his place in the lower class and it is his place in the lower class that feeds his beliefs and attitude. A vicious circle that unfortunately will perpetuate itself and we will be forced to listen to it until he no longer prioritizes his welfare check to pay his internet bill.

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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Thor » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:27 am

Ikpeip wrote:You're advocating theft against productive members of society, to bribe unproductive members of society


Amen.
Thank you Paul.
saltmummy wrote:You sad sad little man, my heart weeps for you. Better not go outside or your thin, tissue paper like skin might spontaneously rupture while your fragile sensibilities violently shatter spraying salt and urine all over the street.
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Claeyt » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:37 am

Ikpeip wrote:-The article you link states "the rich" are increasing in their share of overall wealth. This still is not an indicator of economic growth or health. In your world it'd be better if we were all paupers, as long as we were all equally destitute.
-The only reason your taxes as a percentage of your income is twice Mitt Romney's is due to deductions for charity - twice as much as the $1.9 million he paid in taxes, which puts the combined amount he's "giving back to society" 50% higher, as a percentage of his total income, than yours.
-Nobel prizes are given out for political reasons, not for merit. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9603849/Nobel-Peace-Prize-the-ten-most-controversial-winners.html. Paul Krugman is a hack
-I never claimed automation was solely a response to overly burdensome regulations. I am claiming that overly burdensome regulations provide more of an incentive for automation, and increasing that burden will result in employers hiring less employees. I'm not claiming that's a bad thing, but it does run against your mob-rule desires.
-You claim to be "fighting for the human condition... for the poor and middle class" but you're not fighting for anything. You're advocating theft against productive members of society, to bribe unproductive members of society, to advance your political agenda. When you fight for something, you put your own skin in the game.

-The study concluded specifically from both Reagan's 86 tax cuts and the Bush Tax Cuts that no economic benefit came from them for the country. Both tax cuts were not offset with government spending drops which in short reduced the ability of the government to change course when the economy did fall into recession. little economic growth resulted from specifically lowering taxes on the highest bracket instead it showed increased investment in overseas accounts and in non-corporate investments (bonds, mutual funds, trusts) by the top 5%. This had the result of freezing large amounts of capital out of the U.S. Economy. The result of a 5 fold increase in wealth for the top 1% and a shrinking of 1/3 of the U.S. middle class is what happened. As the rich paid less taxes their tax burden moved to the middle class and specifically payroll taxes on the working poor.

-Only right wing nutjobs think that Nobel Prizes are given out for political reasons. What you're actually seeing is political leadership and scientific research being recognized that you disagree with politically but the rest of the world sees as politically neutral but influential for the benefit of mankind. You've been given delusional information and you've swallowed it. You can quote right wing conservative leaning opinion papers like 'The Telegraph', and 'Money Watch' if you want but they have a clear conservative agenda. 'United Liberty' and 'Times Watch' have about as much to do with journalism as Stormfront, Glenn Beck's Daily Newsletter or Fox News. And before you attack 'The New York Times' and look like even more like a wing-nut for the right, you should realize that 'The New York Times' is considered the best newspaper in the world and the most respected news source in this country since Cronkite died. You're disagreement with Krugman and the Times is simply your spoon fed dogma from sources like Fox News coming back up.

-Responsible workplace regulation which your right wing lobotomized thought process calls burdensome is exactly one of the reasons why that clothes company in that article you cited moved back to N. Carolina rather than continuing in India and Bangladesh, and why they've put in state of the art air cleaners and workplace spaces. Without those positive government regulatory developments over the past 100 years the manufacturing center you work in would be inhumane for the workers just like most of the other 3rd world countries that company fled.

-"Theft against productive members of society", what a joke. Most of these companies are owned by the inheritors of wealth or the money men who are also the inheritors of wealth from their parents. I can't imagine a less productive member of society than these Trust fund perma-children of the 1% you keep voting for. Even look at Bayard Winthorp's family from that clothing company you gave us. It's not like he started with nothing and worked himself up by his bootstraps. :lol:

You're talking about the working poor here. You don't know these people. What you call theft is allowing people to live in decent housing and allowing them to have a decent retirement when they reach old age. You call that theft for some bizarre reason when it's actually investing their lives and labor into this country. How you can call them unproductive is beyond me and I've got as much skin in the game as anyone.

Look at your leaders on the right. So few of them have actually built their money and lives for themselves. Look at your last 3 presidential candidates. Mitt Romney inherited millions and a contact list from his parents and wanted for nothing. McCain is the grandson of a Mississippi Plantation owner which held 120 slaves at it's height (see the article from your very own Telegraph), and George W. Bush is the Grandson and Great Grandson of 2 industrialists. His grandfather was one of 7 directors of a bank that was seized during WWII for being controlled by Nazi Supporter Fritz Thyssen under the 'Trading with the Enemies Act'. Bush himself was fed by his father's friends and business contacts to make his millions. All of these men inherited their wealth and contacts and invented and produced nothing.

As Balzac once said "Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."

jwhitehorn wrote:Your kidding yourself if you think Claeyt is anything but poor and uneducated. He is fighting for what he believes will help future generations avoid the outcome of his own ineptitude. A misplaced effort sure, but I wouldn't go as far to say that his political agenda is outside of his own immediate sphere of knowledge and experiences and therefore, he very much has skin in this "game" he is playing and system he is abusing. It is his beliefs and attitude that have secured his place in the lower class and it is his place in the lower class that feeds his beliefs and attitude. A vicious circle that unfortunately will perpetuate itself and we will be forced to listen to it until he no longer prioritizes his welfare check to pay his internet bill.

I'm neither poor nor uneducated. You couldn't have gotten it more wrong Chief. Even from the personal details I've given you here on the forum you should be able to figure out I've got at least a masters. I work in the private sector. I'd be considered upper middle class but definitely grew up in the lower middle class. :D
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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby jwhitehorn » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:22 am

Claeyt wrote:
I'm neither poor nor uneducated. You couldn't have gotten it more wrong Chief. Even from the personal details I've given you here on the forum you should be able to figure out I've got at least a masters.

Anybody who has read more than 5 of your posts knows any kind of credentials you have written on any papers from a college would serve as nothing more than the proof that establishment has failed miserably.

Claeyt wrote:I work in the private sector. I'd be considered upper middle class but definitely grew up in the lower middle class. :D

I'm not talking about pretend world. I'm talking about the real world. In the real world you are clearly @ the bottom of the food chain and hating every minute of it. I feel bad. But not enough to do anything about it.

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Re: Let's have that political discussion.

Postby Claeyt » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:55 am

jwhitehorn wrote:
Claeyt wrote:
I'm neither poor nor uneducated. You couldn't have gotten it more wrong Chief. Even from the personal details I've given you here on the forum you should be able to figure out I've got at least a masters.

Anybody who has read more than 5 of your posts knows any kind of credentials you have written on any papers from a college would serve as nothing more than the proof that establishment has failed miserably.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I am the establishment. You and PmP are the one's on the edge of political discourse.

jwhitehorn wrote:
Claeyt wrote:I work in the private sector. I'd be considered upper middle class but definitely grew up in the lower middle class. :D

I'm not talking about pretend world. I'm talking about the real world. In the real world you are clearly @ the bottom of the food chain and hating every minute of it. I feel bad. But not enough to do anything about it.

What are you talking about? Bottom of the food chain? I'm comfortable, I'm healthy, I'm employed, I've got beer in the fridge, and you and Paul to needle about your jackass ideas about how the world works. What more could I want? :D
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