TL;DR: The Thread

[marvi]

There's no place for those ideas to be said without shame. Over the last 100 yrs we've seen those ideas lose on battlefield after battlefield. They are false. Less people hold them today, than yesterday.

I hope we drive those ideas from the earth. They have no place in the society of this World.

You can say them to your hearts content, but I'll always call you a racist for saying them.

l agree with you wholeheartedly. But let me point out that, if you read Rokeach and his study of racial prejudice, there is following conclusion: "He found racial prejudice to be inversely related to socio-economic status, and thus concluded that such bias is used in an attempt to elevate one's own status.". In my view, the problem socio-economic status still exists, and my conclusion is: while this problem exists, the idea of racism will always exist, no matter how you call it.

Then, there are people like a bitter bald old man from H&H forums, who is racist. I think that even if you could eliminate the word "racism", he still could have a certain negative feeling towards black people.

Then, there are people like Jorb, who try to think about the racism problem (and the problem of "racist" label) and try to dissect it in a way Rokeach did. I believe they came to the same conclusion. Maybe their error is that they try to make rushed conclusions and their cynicism is an expression of that. But that's an entirely different problem than a problem in the previous example and I argue that the solution shouldn't be the same unless Jorb will start to prepare a revolution with a goal to establish monarchy.

Edit. And more wacky thoughts...

I can find the root of my thoughts in my own introspection of my perceived homophobia. The core conflict is: I feel that homosexual relations are deviant, but it doesn't give me the right to treat gays in in-humane way (kill, isolate, hate them). So I was trying to analyze the root of my own prejudice. Although I can't study it as a scientist, but my subjective conclusion is: I found homophobic prejudice to be inversely related to natural distinction between genders and the way nature works, and thus concluded that such bias is used in an attempt to elevate my own status.

In this discussion I tried to unconsciously analyze my prejudice to you.

In my system you're in the place of "painhertz of ideas". Your actions indirectly confirm this: you are trying to fight opposite ideas with a persuasion and isolation as a racist, homophobe and misogynist would do too to the opposite side. And you try to base your behavior on various seemingly rational reasons (it's the way society works?) to justify that.

Again, my subjective conclusion is: I hypothesize that my prejudice towards you to be inversely related to natural distinction between our cognition methods and responses to the similar situations (the way our brain works?), and thus concluded that such bias is used in an attempt to elevate my own status.

I can call my distinction: true vs not-true "hearts". The paradox of my distinction is that it can be applied recursively to itself. And in that key I try to explore world around me (people, religion, art, scientific studies). And, reflecting all my previous thoughts, I tried to express in this discussion: they are consistent, but there are a lot of junk (in the form of unnecessary conclusions).

Funny thing is: this concept materialized itself during this discussion. So I can honestly say: thank you kindly. No more kissing.

P.S. I'm sure there were smarter people who tried to play with that thought before, but I lack academic knowledge.

[DemonEyes]

There's no place for those ideas to be said without shame. Over the last 100 yrs we've seen those ideas lose on battlefield after battlefield. They are false. Less people hold them today, than yesterday.

I hope we drive those ideas from the earth. They have no place in the society of this World.

You can say them to your hearts content, but I'll always call you a racist for saying them.

People who hold those ideas feel no shame when faced with the lecturing and self righteous approach.. they need to be brought around to the idea that they should be ashamed that they ever held those ideas.

You say that, but I bet the far right had men on those battlefields too.. battles were never fought between countries over inequality even if this was argued to be the case (WW2 was more about the aggressive invasions of Germany rather than stopping the Genocide otherwise action would have been taken sooner)

Less people hold them now, not because those that do hold them have died, but because there is enough information and evidence out there for some to change their own minds or see what ridiculousness prejudice is.

I actually agree with your hope, however disagree with your method.

And that you should, however I still believe racists will sneer at you calling them so. Questioning their view, opening a dialogue, will give them pause for thought and allow you to convince them against their views.

[Claeyt]

And your laws are much more fair than here.
Raping someone here might not get you in jail. Homicide for a person with no previous jail time & good behavior can get out in a year or two.
Sentence for life here means 13 years

Types of Rape won't get you into jail here either. Manslaughter here (type of Homicide charge) can be as low as 2 years. Federal and most states here set 20 years as life, but most states also have 'Life without the possibility of parole for more serious charges.

As to fairness, the neighboring state to mine has the death penalty. Since 1977 they've executed 13 people and 13 people have been exonerated and freed from death row due to DNA testing, proof of prosecutorial misconduct, and false confessions from police torture. Currently we have 2.2 million people behind bars here or .7% of the population, which is both the most and most per capita of any country in the world. 1/3 of them are behind bars for non-violent drug crimes. You can actually get life in prison without the possibility of parole for non-violent drug offenses. Many others are behind bars for things you wouldn't expect in Finland. Most states will charge you with a felony and jail you for 3 months to up to 2 years for your 2nd or more drunk driving conviction. The 3 strikes laws in most states (3 felonies and you get life in prison without parole) have created the largest prison population in the world. There are hundreds of examples of people going to prison for the rest of their life, for felony theft, for stealing less than $1000 dollars worth of items.

[MagicManICT]

Types of Rape won't get you into jail here either.

Clarify please

[DemonEyes]

dont be taking tips now

[Claeyt]

There's no place for those ideas to be said without shame. Over the last 100 yrs we've seen those ideas lose on battlefield after battlefield. They are false. Less people hold them today, than yesterday.

I hope we drive those ideas from the earth. They have no place in the society of this World.

You can say them to your hearts content, but I'll always call you a racist for saying them.

l agree with you wholeheartedly. But let me point out that, if you read Rokeach and his study of racial prejudice, there is following conclusion: "He found racial prejudice to be inversely related to socio-economic status, and thus concluded that such bias is used in an attempt to elevate one's own status.". In my view, the problem socio-economic status still exists, and my conclusion is: while this problem exists, the idea of racism will always exist, no matter how you call it.

Then, there are people like a bitter bald old man from H&H forums, who is racist. I think that even if you could eliminate the word "racism", he still could have a certain negative feeling towards black people.

All racism, discrimination, and homophobia is nothing more than fear. Fear of 'the other', fear of the different, fear of what you don't know. On both sides. Minority behavior is also a response to the same real or imagined fears. All of this is just tribal and it's decreasing as we work against it.

Yet we have a black president, and had a black head to the U.N. Things are changing for the better. Again, there are less racists today than yesterday. The world turns and the kids don't believe the same thing as that 'old racist'. Our job is to teach them to not hate people based on their race.

People who hold those ideas feel no shame when faced with the lecturing and self righteous approach.. they need to be brought around to the idea that they should be ashamed that they ever held those ideas.

You say that, but I bet the far right had men on those battlefields too.. battles were never fought between countries over inequality even if this was argued to be the case (WW2 was more about the aggressive invasions of Germany rather than stopping the Genocide otherwise action would have been taken sooner)

Less people hold them now, not because those that do hold them have died, but because there is enough information and evidence out there for some to change their own minds or see what ridiculousness prejudice is.

I actually agree with your hope, however disagree with your method.

And that you should, however I still believe racists will sneer at you calling them so. Questioning their view, opening a dialogue, will give them pause for thought and allow you to convince them against their views.

By battlefields I meant the battlefields of the American South in the 50's and 60's, and the battlefields of Swedish housing projects back in June. These battles are for the idea of equality and fairness and against racism, discrimination, and inequality.

Information, education and evidence are just tools of those battles for peoples opinions.

Types of Rape won't get you into jail here either.

Clarify please

Statutory Rape (especially for adults 18-21 with consensual sex with someone between 14-16) and some types of Date Rape (non-consensual rape of a passed out girl as an ex.) aren't Prison time in my state necessarily. They do lead to years of probation and felony records, and also minimum security facilities where the convicted has an ankle bracelet with a work pass or day pass. Yes all violent non-consensual rape will get prison time, but I've worked with a student getting his GED who had a 2 year ankle bracelet while living at home because of a date rape situation with a passed out girl while he was drunk as well. He completed the program, and moved on to a job and a different life. I believe he also got 2 years of probation after the bracelet.

[MagicManICT]

They do lead to years of probation and felony records,...

nevermind me, then. I completely misread that previously. I think a lot of states are moving away from the term "rape" in some of those cases as rape denotes unwanted sexual intercourse.

Fear [... of] a black president

Isn't that an old school rap? (not really... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xIQmFk1ok0 censored version, I believe)

[DemonEyes]

Our job is to teach them to not hate people based on their race.


By battlefields I meant the battlefields of the American South in the 50's and 60's, and the battlefields of Swedish housing projects back in June. These battles are for the idea of equality and fairness and against racism, discrimination, and inequality.

Information, education and evidence are just tools of those battles for peoples opinions.

But to teach people to hate people based on their ideas and opinions is the way forward? (this may explain the trend towards religious intolerance)

I take your point, however these things didnt eliminate the racism, it just highlighted it for the need of action. We have had significant uprisings throughout the world on social inequality since the dawn of time. Some change the issues, but most just move the issue someplace else. The American War of Independence, followed by the American Civil War is the most well documented and highlighted.

The UK is a significant example of this point.. We fought against the monarchy as they had the wealth and power in the country, we establish others who then go about amassing the wealth and power.. and regardless of the men lost on battlefields, those at the bottom of the ladder still have the rungs greased for them to climb up. This does not only apply to race or religion but rich and poor as well. White people were slaves a long time before abolition for black slavery, in fact some realize that we are not that much further forward, yet the slavery we suffer now comes with the illusion of freedom and choice. When you cant breathe without the government wanting to tax it, is this not a more subtle way of slavery, when the government write laws limiting what you can do, say and where you can go, does this not remind you of the life of a slave?

The arguments for equality and fairness are usually aimed to promote discord between the slaves, to keep their mind off what really is unfair and unequal. No taxation without representation is a typical governmental phrase to allow them to do as they please.. but.. do you really feel represented by your government, you have a choice between 2 factions (here at least we have 3-4) does either side hold totally to the beliefs and needs of those that vote for them.. I cant see how it could even be possible.

This is where I come from, I understand and agree that prejudice and discrimination are terrible and injustices along these lines occurs a hell of a lot more than they should. But.. There is a way to approach these that does not neglect the rights and freedoms of others, that moderation and legislation should guide rather than demand, express rather than dictate and teach rather than punish.

[Claeyt]

Our job is to teach them to not hate people based on their race.


By battlefields I meant the battlefields of the American South in the 50's and 60's, and the battlefields of Swedish housing projects back in June. These battles are for the idea of equality and fairness and against racism, discrimination, and inequality.

Information, education and evidence are just tools of those battles for peoples opinions.

But to teach people to hate people based on their ideas and opinions is the way forward? (this may explain the trend towards religious intolerance)

I take your point, however these things didnt eliminate the racism, it just highlighted it for the need of action. We have had significant uprisings throughout the world on social inequality since the dawn of time. Some change the issues, but most just move the issue someplace else. The American War of Independence, followed by the American Civil War is the most well documented and highlighted.

The UK is a significant example of this point.. We fought against the monarchy as they had the wealth and power in the country, we establish others who then go about amassing the wealth and power.. and regardless of the men lost on battlefields, those at the bottom of the ladder still have the rungs greased for them to climb up. This does not only apply to race or religion but rich and poor as well. White people were slaves a long time before abolition for black slavery, in fact some realize that we are not that much further forward, yet the slavery we suffer now comes with the illusion of freedom and choice. When you cant breathe without the government wanting to tax it, is this not a more subtle way of slavery, when the government write laws limiting what you can do, say and where you can go, does this not remind you of the life of a slave?

The arguments for equality and fairness are usually aimed to promote discord between the slaves, to keep their mind off what really is unfair and unequal. No taxation without representation is a typical governmental phrase to allow them to do as they please.. but.. do you really feel represented by your government, you have a choice between 2 factions (here at least we have 3-4) does either side hold totally to the beliefs and needs of those that vote for them.. I cant see how it could even be possible.

This is where I come from, I understand and agree that prejudice and discrimination are terrible and injustices along these lines occurs a hell of a lot more than they should. But.. There is a way to approach these that does not neglect the rights and freedoms of others, that moderation and legislation should guide rather than demand, express rather than dictate and teach rather than punish.

You always have a choice to participate in the laws of society.

It's a libertarian myth that we have no power. This is a democracy and as someone who has participated in every aspect of democracy from voting as much as possible to working on federal senate races, I can tell you that people still matter in the process. Yes, big money and massive wealth tip the scales in the U.S. but we're not slaves. It's idiotic to think that you don't have the most freedoms of any person of any time in the history of the world if you're living in a western democracy.

Vote to change stuff you don't like. There are many factions in American politics. 2 out of the 100 senators are independents and 1 of those runs as a socialist. We almost had a Green party state assembly man (think state house of commons) here in my state, and we have 2 independents in the assembly here as well. Volunteer for a candidate you like.

Otherwise you're just spouting libertarian dystopian lines fed to you. Fight wealth and privilege and the forces of anti-democratic control. Promote progressive thought, equality, and the forces of anti-discrimination.

Yes the government says what you can't do, like murder people. Yes the government writes laws about what you can say, like libel laws. Yes the government writes laws that say where you can go, like trespassing laws. This is what a democratic Society looks like. A libertarian society run by the 'morals of self' does not work and has never worked in the history of the world.

Fear [... of] a black president

Isn't that an old school rap? (not really... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xIQmFk1ok0 censored version, I believe)

Here's another good ONE about a black president.

[DemonEyes]

You always have a choice to participate in the laws of society.

It's a libertarian myth that we have no power. This is a democracy and as someone who has participated in every aspect of democracy from voting as much as possible to working on federal senate races, I can tell you that people still matter in the process. Yes, big money and massive wealth tip the scales in the U.S. but we're not slaves. It's idiotic to think that you don't have the most freedoms of any person of any time in the history of the world if you're living in a western democracy.

Vote to change stuff you don't like.

But you dont get to vote on 'stuff', we vote for a party.. its rare (as you point out 2%) that someone is voted that is not part of the 2 main parties. AND who says the parties you vote for will give you the stuff you voted for, or change the things you voted for.. Obama cant do **** because the parties vote against the other.. all politics is is a power struggle and the people may get tidbits they want out of it, but usually don't.

Your vote means ****, the best you can get out of it, is that you have voted against the people who (are going to?) ***** things up the most (thats not saying they wont get re-elected). It is vital we all vote, those who want to say anything for or against the government of their country.. because that is quite literally the only time you can have a say.. and if you haven't tried to have a say, you cant complain.

Democracy in this form is bollocks, Party politics has written off the benefits of 1 man 1 vote, as that person you vote for will vote the party way regardless of what the people who elected have told him they want.

Otherwise you're just spouting libertarian dystopian lines fed to you. Fight wealth and privilege and the forces of anti-democratic control. Promote progressive thought, equality, and the forces of anti-discrimination.

Yes the government says what you can't do, like murder people. Yes the government writes laws about what you can say, like libel laws. Yes the government writes laws that say where you can go, like trespassing laws. This is what a democratic Society looks like. A libertarian society run by the 'morals of self' does not work and has never worked in the history of the world.

My words were never fed to me, I make my own mind up by taking any information i can find on the subject and making my own conclusions (yes they may be wrong or right.. but they are MY conclusions) Current democracy promotes wealth and privilege inequalities, how well paid are politicians? Very.

I wish to point you at something.. taxation.. taxation is the way the government have limited freedoms.. you can go where you want (but you must pay taxes on the fuel you use, the car you drive and the road you drive on,) you can live in the house of your choice (but you must pay council tax to be there, tax on buying the house and tax on selling the house), you can earn a wage (taxed on earnings, taxed on savings and taxed on spending), you can have whatever you want (sales tax, import duty, VAT on pretty much everything).

If you dont pay these taxes the freedom is taken away.. we are not free to do anything even if we are allowed to do anything, these are privileges bought through taxation and are removed when you fail to pay the fee. Even when you die they come to tax you..

I know there is no simple solution to my issues with democracy.. and that its the best of a bad bunch. I am not against government in general I just dont think it should burdon the country so, whilst engaged in their own struggle for power, ignoring what the populace actually want and need.