TL;DR: The Thread

[colesie]

WTF. Could have just linked us to a Shakespeare website if you weren't going to post the 30 second version.

Why would I do that in "TL;DR: The Thread"?

[MagicManICT]

WTF. Could have just linked us to a Shakespeare website if you weren't going to post the 30 second version.

Why would I do that in "TL;DR: The Thread"?

touche

[marvi]

Yeah, that's how, I imagine, a professor of Marxism and Leninism could explain it too.

Nope, all Progressive Social Democrat here. Big Difference between Leninist Marxist.

Sorry for confusion. I didn't put "not literally" and, of course, my statement left ambiguity and became false in your eyes. I'm not trying to put the sign of equality between two ideologies, but rather to point out the similarity in methods to explain things used by two people, who rigorously follow it, in the outcome: misunderstanding of my explanation. It's irrational for you because you can't comprehend empirical knowledge I have. Although I'm sure you have some irrational hypothesis about it. Needless to say, I could do much better job with wording in my explanation.

As it pertains to this thread, I'd say, we're not talking about art or philosophy but rather society, and while an open mind is good for society. Opposing ideas are debated, not merged.

Yes. But I argue that people with opposite ideas can cooperate and strive towards progress, if they really want it.

Let me try to dissect your... jorbophobia. In the core of it lies a statement "jorb ideas will lead towards inequality". I accept that statement "his ideas *can* lead to inequality" is true. But that doesn't mean that statement "his ideas *will* lead to inequality" is true. And that doesn't mean that statement "his ideas *will* lead to the more equality" is false. My hypothesis is that you have derived your statement from personal empirical observations. This is indirectly confirmed by your words about how this worked in USA and for you. Unless you're an impersonation of Hari Seldon, your statement (maybe I should call it fear?) is irrational.

Now the subjective part.

jorb wrote:
....over how I am an evil person and how you must "seriously reconsider your previously warm and brotherly feelings"

Your ideas are outside of the mainstream, Jorb. That's why people say things like that.

For me, the paradox here lies in the fact, that the same words could be written to a famous person by a homophobe, upon learning that he is a gay. And what is privilege in the essence? It's an advantage. You try to use an advantage of public consent. And speaking of public consent, and social and mass media...

All in all, I can relate you to the Grand Inquistor. Fine. Let me kiss you.

[Claeyt]

Sorry for confusion. I didn't put "not literally" and, of course, my statement left ambiguity and became false in your eyes. I'm not trying to put the sign of equality between two ideologies, but rather to point out the similarity in methods to explain things used by two people, who rigorously follow it, in the outcome: misunderstanding of my explanation. It's irrational for you because you can't comprehend empirical knowledge I have. Although I'm sure you have some irrational hypothesis about it. Needless to say, I could do much better job with wording in my explanation.

Why do you keep thinking that I'm irrational or living in a fantasy world. The ideas I'm defending, define society as it stands in most western countries today.

As it pertains to this thread, I'd say, we're not talking about art or philosophy but rather society, and while an open mind is good for society. Opposing ideas are debated, not merged.

Yes. But I argue that people with opposite ideas can cooperate and strive towards progress, if they really want it.

Let me try to dissect your... jorbophobia. In the core of it lies a statement "jorb ideas will lead towards inequality". I accept that statement "his ideas *can* lead to inequality" is true. But that doesn't mean that statement "his ideas *will* lead to inequality" is true. And that doesn't mean that statement "his ideas *will* lead to the more equality" is false. My hypothesis is that you have derived your statement from personal empirical observations. This is indirectly confirmed by your words about how this worked in USA and for you. Unless you're an impersonation of Hari Seldon, your statement (maybe I should call it fear?) is irrational.

Can versus Will, either one is unacceptable. What the hell does the concept of Psychohistory have to do with anything here, I'm not trying to change anything? Jorb's ideas are against the state of society that I believe in and are wrong. It's as simple as that.

Now the subjective part.

jorb wrote:
....over how I am an evil person and how you must "seriously reconsider your previously warm and brotherly feelings"

Your ideas are outside of the mainstream, Jorb. That's why people say things like that.

For me, the paradox here lies in the fact, that the same words could be written to a famous person by a homophobe, upon learning that he is a gay. And what is privilege in the essence? It's an advantage. You try to use an advantage of public consent. And speaking of public consent, and social and mass media...

No, the comparison you should be looking for is someone defending slavery after the American Civil war. Or defending Serfdom after the Czar freed the serfs. Or defending racism, in today's society. Jorb's ideas are promoting a way of life that we have left behind. Society has moved past it morally, towards fairness and equality. The argument has been settled. He and you are behind the times.

[DemonEyes]

Is it fair or equal to force someone to change their opinion?

Is it fair or equal to stop someone telling how they dislike someone else?

I hate everyone equally.. is that fair?

Is it fair to be tarred with the same brush as others who appear the same way I do?

As a white, young, able bodied male in full time employment, I feel I am constantly attacked by the ideals of fairness and equality, where i cannot get a promotion due to the requirement to have a certain amount of females or people from differing ethnic backgrounds. I cannot get medical care from our NHS without significant waiting times due to there being 'patients with more pressing needs' even though I need to work to pay my taxes to pay the NHS.

At no point do I feel the need to be treated above anyone else, I just find that equality and fairness get others treated above me, whether they deserve it or not.

I believe 100% in the right of free speech, and find that the actions and intentions of others along the lines of equality and fairness simply counter my right and make it so I cant say the things I want to say and have a right to say.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is a concept left long ago when freedom was valued and no longer limited by the militant activists.

Anyone who complains about what others say, to anyone other than the speaker, is a hypocrite to the worst degree. and will be shot when I get in power

[marvi]

To address some your possible concerns.

I'm an atheist. I do not in believe in any deity, although the fact that they exist in the form of hypothesis is important.

If I could classify myself, I would say I'm a naive humanist more than anything else. I'm in love with George Sand and Exupery. I can't place myself behind history although I understand that (honest) humanism never was "mainstream": for the reasons I, you, jorb and many others perfectly understand I think.

Another pillar of my world view is science. That's why I referenced psychohistory: with this tool in hand you can objectively measure how your actions correspond to a goal. As it stands, all you have are observations from the past of your "fathers" (that is, people who did the same things before) and observations how it worked out. It worked out to be better. You conclusion is that by doing the same you will achieve more goodness. Essentially you're maintaining a tradition set by the previous generation and you fight with people that use old, outdated, ineffective methods (of separating chaff and wheat). But remember that your future enemy is "cargo cult". My own views are fallible to this phenomena too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science.

I'm not questioning your ideas.

I'm unwise, and maybe even stupid, in putting everything like that and placing myself on some kind of high horse. To put me down to earth, you can blame me for a passivity. Believe me, I accept it and I understand the problem and I'm trying to always be on earth.

I think that a person is open minded not when he can think about everything using certain categories but when he can think outside of these categories. That's what experience with my profession tells me too: link.

Also, I never used drugs. Although I have a wild hypothesis that my relatively short and zealous passion to abstract mathematics have left some "scars" in my brain. I'm a very bad mathematician though. I'm just a decent programmer, who works remotely in a outsourcing US-based company, interacts with indian, chinese guys and participates in a creation of somewhat ****** enterprise-level software.

Probably you have a question, why I haven't killed myself yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93bqGKftxxk

P.S. Are you aware about Milton Rokeach works?

[Claeyt]

Is it fair or equal to force someone to change their opinion?

Nobody can force anybody to change their opinion, only the person can change it.

Is it fair or equal to stop someone telling how they dislike someone else?

It is, ....when they are being racist, or prejudiced, or discriminatory. In some cases it's actually against the law (ex. Neo-Nazi's in Germany)

I hate everyone equally.. is that fair?

Yes, but it just makes you a *****.

As a white, young, able bodied male in full time employment, I feel I am constantly attacked by the ideals of fairness and equality, where i cannot get a promotion due to the requirement to have a certain amount of females or people from differing ethnic backgrounds.

You are just imagining that. Really you're just not very good at your job, and nobody likes you there because you're so bitter, and the people promoted over you are just better than you at the job.

I cannot get medical care from our NHS without significant waiting times due to there being 'patients with more pressing needs' even though I need to work to pay my taxes to pay the NHS.

That's just idiotic. Why wouldn't they take the patients with the most pressing needs first. They're not taking people based on race or sex or anything.

Wait your turn.

At no point do I feel the need to be treated above anyone else, I just find that equality and fairness get others treated above me, whether they deserve it or not.

What you're feeling is the lack of white privilege. Clearly you think you're better if you think you deserve that promotion, or should be able to jump the line for medical care. Get used to it and welcome to the modern world where different types of people live and work with you.

I believe 100% in the right of free speech, and find that the actions and intentions of others along the lines of equality and fairness simply counter my right and make it so I cant say the things I want to say and have a right to say.

No you don't believe in it. Just look at your last line.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is a concept left long ago when freedom was valued and no longer limited by the militant activists.

You're a jackass to quote Voltaire at me. He was one of the greatest Progressive philosopher's of the Enlightenment. He argued for Humanism, Civil Rights, Freedom from Religion, and against Slavery. Of course he was also a racist, anti-semite.

You don't even know what the quote means. He was arguing for freedom of speech and freedom of the press so as to disparage the King and Church and tear down that very part of society that you miss so much. Or as Jorb calls them 'The Old Order' and of course he can be considered one of the father's of the French Revolution that the Dev's hate so much. He's generally associated (along with others) with the first two of the very Jacobian motto "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" and he was a VERY militant activist.

Anyone who complains about what others say, to anyone other than the speaker, is a hypocrite to the worst degree. and will be shot when I get in power

...and so you show your true Fascist colors. Why were you trying to hide that if that's the way you feel.

I'll tell you why, ...because the internet gives you the right to say stuff that you can't say in public, or at work. You feel that you're better than these brown skinned people, women, and people with disabilities. Well, you're not. You're just a white guy whose bitter that everybody else gets to participate now. If it's a right-wing libertarian in Scandinavia whose afraid he's lost his country to immigrants and refugees, or a British National Party Oi-Boy who doesn't like the Curry-Lickers, or a Texas Tea-party Anti-Tax Retiree on Social Security, or just a British guy who likes posting stuff he wouldn't say in public. You guys are the hypocrites, because you think that you deserve something. You hate that the 'Others' are now 'equal' to you, and you're afraid of the future.

[Thor]

I'd like to say that here in Finland an unemployed immigrant costs ~5 times more than a home baked one to our country. That's not racist, that's statistics.
Our unemployment rate is highest ever and we have to make room for more people. I mean it's okay if they come here to work but sadly most of them don't "integrate" into our society.
For example, our police academy has to select some foreign candidates over Finnish ones. So it's not about who gets the best score anymore, it's about color of your skin.
This was explained with lowering the language barrier between police force and immigrant "customers".. Well, I thought that when moving into a new country means learning a new language?
Some of our schools can't even celebrate normal Christmas because Muslims are so offended by it.
Make your own conclusions, if disliking those things makes me a racist then I guess I am.

[Claeyt]

To address some your possible concerns.

I'm an atheist. I do not in believe in any deity, although the fact that they exist in the form of hypothesis is important.

If I could classify myself, I would say I'm a naive humanist more than anything else. I'm in love with George Sand and Exupery. I can't place myself behind history although I understand that (honest) humanism never was "mainstream": for the reasons I, you, jorb and many others perfectly understand I think.

Another pillar of my world view is science. That's why I referenced psychohistory: with this tool in hand you can objectively measure how your actions correspond to a goal. As it stands, all you have are observations from the past of your "fathers" (that is, people who did the same things before) and observations how it worked out. It worked out to be better. You conclusion is that by doing the same you will achieve more goodness. Essentially you're maintaining a tradition set by the previous generation and you fight with people that use old, outdated, ineffective methods (of separating chaff and wheat). But remember that your future enemy is "cargo cult". My own views are fallible to this phenomena too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science.

I'm not questioning your ideas.

I'm unwise, and maybe even stupid, in putting everything like that and placing myself on some kind of high horse. To put me down to earth, you can blame me for a passivity. Believe me, I accept it and I understand the problem and I'm trying to always be on earth.

I think that a person is open minded not when he can think about everything using certain categories but when he can think outside of these categories. That's what experience with my profession tells me too: link.

Also, I never used drugs. Although I have a wild hypothesis that my relatively short and zealous passion to abstract mathematics have left some "scars" in my brain. I'm a very bad mathematician though. I'm just a decent programmer, who works remotely in a outsourcing US-based company, interacts with indian, chinese guys and participates in a creation of somewhat ****** enterprise-level software.

Psychohistory, Socialist French Imagists, The little Prince, Materialistic Possession Fetishists, Bosh Science, Blub Programming, SMZ.

Your post is making me feel like I'm on drugs. I highly recommend you try some hallucinogenics, math guys love 'em.

Probably you have a question, why I haven't killed myself yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93bqGKftxxk

You'll like this music then:

I believe that a SONG is Always more Powerful than a SPEECH.... And tells you more about the PERSON who listens to it.

P.S. Are you aware about Milton Rokeach works?

Yes I'm aware of Milton, but only because I'm the all knowing son of God herself. Yes I'm Jesus and I've returned to earth to save the world from itself.

[Claeyt]

I'd like to say that here in Finland an unemployed immigrant costs ~5 times more than a home baked one to our country. That's not racist, that's statistics.
Our unemployment rate is highest ever and we have to make room for more people. I mean it's okay if they come here to work but sadly most of them don't "integrate" into our society.
For example, our police academy has to select some foreign candidates over Finnish ones. So it's not about who gets the best score anymore, it's about color of your skin.
This was explained with lowering the language barrier between police force and immigrant "customers".. Well, I thought that when moving into a new country means learning a new language?
Some of our schools can't even celebrate normal Christmas because Muslims are so offended by it.
Make your own conclusions, if disliking those things makes me a racist then I guess I am.

Cite something, otherwise it's just you saying this stuff. 5x the cost? Required hiring? Lowering the Language Barrier?

Part of living in a country with multiple religions is that parts of society like public school that we all have to participate in don't get to celebrate religious holidays. We haven't had "Christmas" as a religious holiday in schools in the U.S. in years. Now it's a "Holiday" celebration and of course the Religious right goes nuts about it every year. Religion has no place in public schools.

You're not racist, you just don't like the new immigrants in your country because of their religion or language.