TL;DR: The Thread

[marvi]

That pendulum of government control of wealth (as outcome) can swing back and forth to the extremes in this world, but progressives have been pushing it and stabilizing it towards Democratic-Socialism, Social Equality, Universal Suffrage, Worker's Rights, and Basic Welfare for those in need for a long time. Some of the people on this forum and, in my opinion, Jorb are pushing against us.

But I guess "societal exclusion" is fine when it applied to these people? This is what I see in the first post of this topic and the first post of yours.

In my opinion, the system of beliefs, principles, morals, that particular human being might employ, while isn't the same as race/gender/sexual preferences, should be considered in the conjunction of his intentions, his "heart", after all. Of course I don't know much about Jorb and that's just my judgment, but I didn't see any calls to "holy wars", or any tries to enforce his beliefs on others. All I can see is his perspective. Feel free to prove me wrong.

In the end, such set of beliefs is a thing that gives meaning to the life, a kind of support that allows to act and move forward as an individual. Maybe it can give him inspiration to create a great game? Can it be a bad thing? In that case, the initial e-mail and your rant are intended to create any objection by any means available, aren't they?

[Claeyt]

But I guess "societal exclusion" is fine when it applied to these people? This is what I see in the first post of this topic and the first post of yours.

In my opinion, the system of beliefs, principles, morals, that particular human being might employ, while isn't the same as race/gender/sexual preferences, should be considered in the conjunction of his intentions, his "heart", after all. Of course I don't know much about Jorb and that's just my judgment, but I didn't see any calls to "holy wars", or any tries to enforce his beliefs on others. All I can see is his perspective. Feel free to prove me wrong.

In the end, such set of beliefs is a thing that gives meaning to the life, a kind of support that allows to act and move forward as an individual. Maybe it can give him inspiration to create a great game? Can it be a bad thing? In that case, the initial e-mail and your rant are intended to create any objection by any means available, aren't they?

No not by any means available. You've probably missed the longstanding arguments we've had

so

Just so we don't forget what the 2 Dev's and Admins of this forum have said here and on other forums over the past 3 months.

What edifices of behaviors or morality do you believe progressives tore down and deconstructed?

I find the public expressions of modernity to be shallow, vain, stale, technocratic, petty, animalistic, lonely, ugly, egotistic, spiritually lacking and devoid of meaning, and feel instead far more comfortable in what I perceive to be the vertically oriented, familial, richer, fuller, and more integrated world view and symbolism of what can broadly be described as the old order, that is to say traditional, Christian and Monarchical European societies as they appeared -- rooted in the soil of their making -- before the murderous ravages of the 20th century. When I lament Jacobin deconstruction, it is precisely the deconstruction of traditional, legitimate authority and natural order I lament, i.e. the systematic subversion of symbols such as those of -- most visibly -- throne and altar, and their replacement instead with the symbols of money and the guillotine, that is to say corporate neo-mercantilism and democracy.

I do not believe in democracy, nor in human equality before any yardstick other than God. The forms, concepts, expressions and internal contradictions of liberal secular religion and theology are not mine, and I take no interest in them. I consider beauty to be an objective category, and a human value of no lesser an importance than that of truth or justice.

I believe that God in his image made men and women separate and distinct. I recognize the fundamental distinctness of archetypes such as 'Mother' and 'Father', and I do not believe that human life or understanding is served by reducing such wondrous categories of structured reality to an undifferentiated muddle of indistinct chaos, i.e. "equality". It follows that I feel no particular compulsion to treat men and women "equally", but on the contrary always with respect for the fullness and integrity of their persons.

I consider any assertion of equality as a value to be incompatible with the recognition of human personhood and personality; the fundamental, manifold expressions of harmonious -- that is to say differentiated and fundamentally unequal -- reality, and the most beautiful qualities of the human condition.

I believe it virtuous to put kith and kin before strangers.
I do not consider fornication to be the apex of human personal achievement.

All flesh is hay.

I literally just lost every ounce of respect I had for you as a human being.

You are a repulsive ***** cancer and I sincerely hope you are sterile because the last thing this world needs is more anti-progressive god-fearing nutbags like you.

You ***** disgust me.

Progressive tolerance in action. The bastard child of universal suffrage and public education. ^^

(Though it deserves to be mentioned that feudalism does have an undeservedly bad reputation. Serfs kept some 3/4:s of their earnings, which is obviously quite the leap up from the inverse proportion that my overlords allow me to keep.)

Whoever wins, you can be certain that the Bohemian Grove, the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderberg group, and the Council on Foreign Relations are still in session.

Political power grows from the barrel of a gun. Politics is the means by which one interest dominates another interest and enforces its own will through the ultimate and undeniable adjudication of physical force. The ultimate expression of politics is War. It can be dressed in nice clothing, turned into constitutions and parliaments and prettied up to reduce the instances of violent resolution, but at the end of the day the political market always clears and settles debts in violence.

Man is the wolf of man.

You tell me that I should give up **** -- my supposed "white privilege" -- in order to be nice?

***** nice.

You can't hurt a Swede by calling him bad, because that's precisely what we aspire to. If you wanted to hurt me, you'd have to call me out for being better than someone somehow; I would then have to vehemently defend myself as worse.

shut up ******

Behold, indeed, another example where the use of "******" is not actually used to insult homosexuals for being homosexuals.

If anyone wanted to complain that the comment is immature or uncalled for, I would not necessarily disagree, but if you come ranting about kLauE enforcing his cis-privileges and the patriarchy's rape-culture, I might consider having yo ass for it.

On the third hand, it can perfectly well also be argued that being all butthurt about seeing "******" being used on the Internet is just as (if not more) immature as using it, and that one should be trolled a bit into a state of lesser sensitivity. The balance is not always obvious, and I don't think there's any example solution to every conflict related thereto.

Aw, ****. This thread is awesome. I'm going to go have a shower now. Later, ******.

[Tonkyhonk]

the unemployment rate

people do not in reality compare the rate with other countries with different situations.
people compare with the experience or knowledge of their own past.
there is no meaning in comparing those numbers with other countries when you talk about the harshness of unemployment.

First off 'Nitty Gritty' in this example is referring to "getting to the essential questions or facts about the argument" or "arguing the details or points of fact".

that is what exactly i believe it is supposed to mean. and i do not see that in your responses.

im sorry to dismiss what you wrote, but you are not at all responding to what im saying and i see lack of understandings here.
i am not here to hear of your idealistic beautiful view of your eutopia in the future, but to discuss the issues.
first of all, please refer to "Equality of outcome" and see how it is different from "equality of opportunity".

Do you see how illogical your responses are now? you mixed up these "opportunities" and "results", and when Procne and jwhitehorn are talking about issues coming from the results, you are responding with the opportunities. you are not reading and responding to the points others made, you are listing your praises for this idealistic american system and tells others to follow, ignoring and dismissing what the existing issues are, or you pretend they dont exist because they shouldnt exist if people are nice and well educated. you say educations can remove issues, but add that it takes time, so what untill it starts working? nothing. but expect others to educate people to shut them up now and follow your perfect role model and how you fought for the skewing equalities. you demand other countries to do the same thing at once which has taken americans over 50 years and not yet achieved.

issues should not exist? fine, but they do exist. you cannot ignore that when they are smelling harder and harder.
you can "educate" people so they find whatever the new law the government makes fine, but "education" takes time and people feel that they need to deal with the issues now. their cries can be heard in many places across the world.

what you are basically saying is to force the resulting equalities and shut them up, tell the people how equal opportunities are necessary while applying the equal outcomes instead, convince and change their mind and hope for the day they stop complaining for the bright future.
(this strategy is the same as that of china, you know? they educate and hunt down people who complain against the government and literally shut them up. the difference is you dont hunt them down by violence, but by appealing to their "consciences" and making them feel guilty.)

the problem i see here is not your idealism itself, but rather how you ignore the existing issues, or try not to touch them and close your eyes.
i applaud you that you have such a great goal. it is very nice and i cheer you that you can work for your perfect goals and cooperate with your community by your wonderful educations and be positive with lots of hopes up.
BUT the issues stay no matter what, education does not work instantly, and people's dissatisfaction accumulates day by day.
this accumulation could cause "hysteria".
an opinion of "the issues should not exist" is fine, and it may be possible to remove them by "educating people", but you cannot ignore the fact that they exist now just because they shouldnt exist, and that is making the matters worse.
this is why i say you are not looking at the reality, why you are subjective, and why normal people do not get convinced no matter how they are educated or not. (im afraid that rather educated people wouldnt be convinced with your logic.)

the same can be said about how you talked about your students. how some are productive members of the community while some arent. you label those who dont follow you as "not productive" and leave them be and act like they dont exist. i know for a fact that some students refuse to learn, and there is not much we can do. but what would your students think if they see you label them as such? isnt that the exact reason why you cant see potential issues? please realize what you are producing by such behavior of yours as an educator.

I definitely don't think Murica #1 in most cases, but that's a whole other thread and topic. We are pretty good at integrating Immigrants and mass ESL education.

please read back how many times you brought up how great your systems are and how others should do the same.
its great that you believe america is such a successful country, but i dont hear the same thoughts from other fellow americans, except for some touring guides or gov. brochures and ads, and i cant help but think you are ignoring the problems you have and just trying to see the only pretty parts of it with pretty decorations, or you just have never seen such dirty parts, maybe because where you live is, what, Dane County, Wisconsin? where almost 90% of the population being white, living in a suburb, nice and gorgeous with perfect community, without much feelings of threats of immigrants rapid increase? (im terribly sorry if im assuming it wrong here.)
im not blaming you that your have a nice environment, but what i mean is that sometimes people cannot understand something that they didnt experience themselves. think of Salem witch-trial. can you be certain that you would have never fallen for the hysteria and worked against the whole community if you lived there back then?

about what you said about some of us and jorb/loftar are pushing against you.

it is great that you are trying to encourage the goodness of human-beings. but we all know we have dark parts in ourselves.
maybe it is best to remove the dirt and trashes from your pretty room and show others the only nice parts, hide the unwanted under the rug or vacuum into a box, and hope it wont grow nor smell too badly, and it may disappear some day some how.
maybe it is better to accept all and stare at the issues and live with them, watch them, and face the reality and pick out rotten apples, instead of hiding this potential monsters under the rug.
i have not decided which direction i want to choose yet. i think we can keep them both ways and i want to respect both.

considering how you dont comprehend others yet respond, i doubt you actually understand any of what devs intentions are by those quotes. they may be naive sometimes about what they say, at times they say what i hate, but i see they are consistent in their policy and i respect that. you can name them however you want, but the real monsters are not them, instead, its those who hide their real faces with double standards and put the blame on other visibles.

[Claeyt]

the unemployment rate

people do not in reality compare the rate with other countries with different situations.
people compare with the experience or knowledge of their own past.
there is no meaning in comparing those numbers with other countries when you talk about the harshness of unemployment.

It is highly meaningful to compare unemployment rates between countries. It can tell you many things.

First off 'Nitty Gritty' in this example is referring to "getting to the essential questions or facts about the argument" or "arguing the details or points of fact".

that is what exactly i believe it is supposed to mean. and i do not see that in your responses.

They gave specific examples of specific problems, and I gave as specific answers to their problems without writing a dissertation on them.

How is that not getting to the essential facts of the argument.

im sorry to dismiss what you wrote, but you are not at all responding to what im saying and i see lack of understandings here.
i am not here to hear of your idealistic beautiful view of your eutopia in the future, but to discuss the issues.
first of all, please refer to "Equality of outcome" and see how it is different from "equality of opportunity".

It is not different from that page at all, if you'll follow that page to the 'Equality of Opportunity' page that it's linked to you'll see how liberals and conservatives disagree as to what the 'Equality of Opportunity' means. Liberals view it as encompassing discrimination under the law, and incorporating people into society successfully. Conservatives view it through the narrower lens of market based opportunity. That is exactly what this conversation is about. You're interpreting the issues we were talking about wrongly. 'Equality of Outcome' and 'Equality of Opportunity' are not mutual exclusive under liberal thought. They are under Conservative thought. That's where you are mistaken.

Do you see how illogical your responses are now? you mixed up these "opportunities" and "results", and when Procne and jwhitehorn are talking about issues coming from the results, you are responding with the opportunities. you are not reading and responding to the points others made, you are listing your praises for this idealistic american system and tells others to follow, ignoring and dismissing what the existing issues are, or you pretend they dont exist because they shouldnt exist if people are nice and well educated. you say educations can remove issues, but add that it takes time, so what untill it starts working? nothing. but expect others to educate people to shut them up now and follow your perfect role model and how you fought for the skewing equalities. you demand other countries to do the same thing at once which has taken americans over 50 years and not yet achieved.

My responses are not illogical at all. Under Democratic Socialism on both concepts, you can give a kid (or member of society) both greater opportunity and also greater outcome. I was trying to explain to them how classical Progressive philosophy about the 'CREATION' and 'Equalization' of 'Equality of Opportunity' in the liberal sense. Again, 'Equality of Opportunity' and 'Equality of Outcome' are not mutually exclusive under liberal thought. Liberals believe that government can be used as a tool to change both of them and society for the better.

I don't expect education to work overnight or other countries to achieve what the U.S. has achieved over 50 years. I do expect radical changes to medieval societies to become part of the modern world. I do expect my government to challenge basic long held beliefs in other countries.

issues should not exist? fine, but they do exist. you cannot ignore that when they are smelling harder and harder.
you can "educate" people so they find whatever the new law the government makes fine, but "education" takes time and people feel that they need to deal with the issues now. their cries can be heard in many places across the world.

Smelling?

True, the cries of people can be heard all over the world and I vote leaders into my government who I think will hear them better. Yes, Education takes time. We should start as soon as possible.

what you are basically saying is to force the resulting equalities and shut them up, tell the people how equal opportunities are necessary while applying the equal outcomes instead, convince and change their mind and hope for the day they stop complaining for the bright future.
(this strategy is the same as that of china, you know? they educate and hunt down people who complain against the government and literally shut them up. the difference is you dont hunt them down by violence, but by appealing to their "consciences" and making them feel guilty.)

Again, you are misunderstanding the concept of 'Equality of Opportunity' under liberal thought and confusing it with the conservative philosophy of it.

We have gotten to where we are as a world and as Western Civilization by doing exactly that. By applying greater opportunities with democratic socialism so that people are better off than they were 400 years ago. We are living in the "Bright future" of our great grandparents. They would see this time as an amazing place. We live longer, we work less, we know more. But yes it's a constant struggle against the forces opposing it.

Maybe they feel guilty for a reason. Their views are against what we are trying to achieve. They have a right to say whatever they want, and I have a right to contest it. They should feel guilty for defending Greed, Homophobia, and Discrimination. You'll notice StaxJax didn't include his real name or information when he throws out words like ******. He feels secretly guilty about it and has the freedom of being unknown here. He wouldn't say it in public, because he knows that people view it as Homophobic, and he would be chastised by society.

the problem i see here is not your idealism itself, but rather how you ignore the existing issues, or try not to touch them and close your eyes.
i applaud you that you have such a great goal. it is very nice and i cheer you that you can work for your perfect goals and cooperate with your community by your wonderful educations and be positive with lots of hopes up.
BUT the issues stay no matter what, education does not work instantly, and people's dissatisfaction accumulates day by day.
this accumulation could cause "hysteria".
an opinion of "the issues should not exist" is fine, and it may be possible to remove them by "educating people", but you cannot ignore the fact that they exist now just because they shouldnt exist, and that is making the matters worse.
this is why i say you are not looking at the reality, why you are subjective, and why normal people do not get convinced no matter how they are educated or not. (im afraid that rather educated people wouldnt be convinced with your logic.)

I'm not ignoring any existing issues that I know of. What issues do you think I'm ignoring?

Yes education doesn't work instantly, but it will work eventually. We are more educated as a world, as a country, and as a people than we were 100 years ago.

People's dissatisfaction accumulates and then recedes, it's the way of the world. Tough economic times make people question where society has led them, it happens every time. Progressive thought continues and grows and the world changes for the better. It continues through the good times and it continues through the bad times. Someday we'll look back on this World recession and see it for what it was. Another day people will be happier than they are today.

I never ignore the issues that exist today. I face them head on in the world, and here on these forums.

Normal people do not want to tear down government or discriminate against people. Educated people the world over are convinced of Progressive philosophy. 75% of Phd's in America vote Democrat, 80% of them think of themselves as Progressive Democrats.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_PhD_degree_holders_vote_Democratic

the same can be said about how you talked about your students. how some are productive members of the community while some arent. you label those who dont follow you as "not productive" and leave them be and act like they dont exist. i know for a fact that some students refuse to learn, and there is not much we can do. but what would your students think if they see you label them as such? isnt that the exact reason why you cant see potential issues? please realize what you are producing by such behavior of yours as an educator.

I've taught hundreds of students. I've taught General Curriculum, ESL, and Special ED. I treated all of those students equally without labeling them. The vast majority of them went on to become regular members of society. Some became very special to society, and a small few took wrong turns after school and ended up making mistakes. Every teacher in america could tell you the exact same thing.

I never had a student who refused to learn. I've had students who were bored, unchallenged, or was unable to learn using the methods I was using. I tried to fix that by being more exciting, challenging them, and changing the methods I used. Nobody refuses to learn, they just don't know how.

I definitely don't think Murica #1 in most cases, but that's a whole other thread and topic. We are pretty good at integrating Immigrants and mass ESL education.

please read back how many times you brought up how great your systems are and how others should do the same.
its great that you believe america is such a successful country, but i dont hear the same thoughts from other fellow americans, except for some touring guides or gov. brochures and ads, and i cant help but think you are ignoring the problems you have and just trying to see the only pretty parts of it with pretty decorations, or you just have never seen such dirty parts, maybe because where you live is, what, Dane County, Wisconsin? where almost 90% of the population being white, living in a suburb, nice and gorgeous with perfect community, without much feelings of threats of immigrants rapid increase? (im terribly sorry if im assuming it wrong here.)

Nope, Your right. Dane County is pretty white and it has the highest percentage of PhD's Per capita of anywhere in the U.S., but it's schools are changing. 1/2 of all students are minorities and a third live in poverty. It's a great town and easy to live in.

....but, I've taught in inner-city Milwaukee, the North Side of Chicago (mostly Puerto Rican), Rural communities, and even at Ethan Allen correctional facility for boys once for 6 months as a permanent sub. So I'm not a noob to what you're talking about.

America has many, many problems and is not as successful as people make it out to be. I could go on about them for a long time, but I won't. It's also a big, vibrant country with a lot of different types of people. Sometime in the next 20 years, we're going to become a minority white country (White people will become less than 50% of the population). People don't know it but when the country was founded White people only made up about 70% of the population. We have cities with millions of people that didn't exist 50 years ago. We re-invent our country and our society every day it seems. Anywhichway, we will always be a 'New' country. And that, I like about it.

im not blaming you that your have a nice environment, but what i mean is that sometimes people cannot understand something that they didnt experience themselves. think of Salem witch-trial. can you be certain that you would have never fallen for the hysteria and worked against the whole community if you lived there back then?

I probably would have been one of the ones killed as a Witch.

People forget that a lot of the people killed during that were women who were unmarried or widowed. Also, in U.S. history it was viewed as the end of the puritanical religious period of early immigration and government and afterwards British government and legal systems grew and became more formalized.

about what you said about some of us and jorb/loftar are pushing against you.

it is great that you are trying to encourage the goodness of human-beings. but we all know we have dark parts in ourselves.
maybe it is best to remove the dirt and trashes from your pretty room and show others the only nice parts, hide the unwanted under the rug or vacuum into a box, and hope it wont grow nor smell too badly, and it may disappear some day some how.
maybe it is better to accept all and stare at the issues and live with them, watch them, and face the reality and pick out rotten apples, instead of hiding this potential monsters under the rug.
i have not decided which direction i want to choose yet. i think we can keep them both ways and i want to respect both.

The Dark parts of ourselves have dissipated over the years. Think of how far we've come since the Salem Witch trials 320 years ago. I'm not sweeping it under the rug, I'm opening a window and raising the drapes.

considering how you dont comprehend others yet respond, i doubt you actually understand any of what devs intentions are by those quotes. they may be naive sometimes about what they say, at times they say what i hate, but i see they are consistent in their policy and i respect that. you can name them however you want, but the real monsters are not them, instead, its those who hide their real faces with double standards and put the blame on other visibles.

Too true, the ones who hide behind fake names are the real "monsters".

I respect the dev's, but dislike their ideas. I'll never tell them that they aren't allowed to have those ideas, but I will fight their ideas with my own. I will point out as the admins and owners of this forum they are the overseers of it's content. By choosing to not cut the racist/homophobic ***** they encourage it even though they may not care.

[Procne]

I kinda bailed out of this discussion, it's getting too long and tedious for me.

Just wanted to explain and remind what was the reason for my earlier posts.

So, TechXKnight said that working towards a goal may sometimes cause something opposite than expected.
Then Claeyt asked how does working towards equality can result in inequality. So I gave examples. Examples of bad way of fighting for equality in my country. In other countries solutions may be different and they may work. But the examples I gave have their side-effects in my country which lead to further inequality.

And that's it. I'm all for equal opportunities, but there are smart ways to work towards them, and there are dumb ways. And the recent "trends" for equality often bring with them short-sighted solutions, but catchy, often backed by demagogues. You try to tell them their solutions are bad, they will tell you "Oh, so you are against equal rights for women?" (what's the name of this logical fallacy?), and the crowd will follow. Especially when many people expect socialist freebies, and if they don't get them they feel "discriminated".

[marvi]

No not by any means available. You've probably missed the longstanding arguments we've had

Nope. I still think you don't want or cannot understand him. To address his first quoted post, to get a better view, I would've directly asked, "which particular measures/actions you want to employ on your future children?". Have I missed this question and his answer?

IMO this particular question and a honest answer are very important to any judgment.

Also, I saw the following interpretation which was made in private, to quote it: "he wants the mother to sit by the stove at home, cooking the meals, obeying the father". It was based only on that one quote. It simplistically ignores his "but on the contrary [to treat] always with respect for the fullness and integrity of their persons".

In the same sentence he talks about inherent inequality. How it can be interpreted? Imagine two hyperbolic cases. In first case 2/3 of all men have died. In the second, 2/3 of all women. Will be outcome for a humanity, as a whole, equal in these two cases?

[TeckXKnight]

I kinda bailed out of this discussion, it's getting too long and tedious for me.

Don't worry, that was pretty much my response too. I've just being doing my best to skim to try to keep up to date. =)

[alloin]

+ 7 x quotes in every post & over 1000 words about a personal view about something that can be said in 2 lines, no ty, i won't read any further

ps: my wife is a hard worker, i'm a stay at home dad who grows & sells drugs & games all day equality does not exist & ***** yeah, freedom of speech, muricah sux !

[Dallane]

+ 7 x quotes in every post & over 1000 words about a personal view about something that can be said in 2 lines, no ty, i won't read any further

ps: my wife is a hard worker, i'm a stay at home dad who grows & sells drugs & games all day equality does not exist & ***** yeah, freedom of speech, muricah sux !

Don't worry murica is watching everyone now lol

[Nimmeth]

Don't worry murica is watching everyone now lol

don't flatter yourself. Murica is also ignoring you