TL;DR: The Thread

[Claeyt]

so, Claeyt, arent you going to answer back to me about equal opportunities vs equal outcomes? and just end it with insults?

I haven't insulted you have I? The only people I even remotely insulted here were the usual Trolls.

What was your question about equal opportunities vs equal outcomes? I must have missed it.

[Tonkyhonk]

I haven't insulted you have I? The only people I even remotely insulted here were the usual Trolls.

What was your question about equal opportunities vs equal outcomes? I must have missed it.

na, i insulted you for ignoring it, or "accidentally" missed it when you see everything and ignore nothing.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7001&start=50#p86212
the one that your friend Tl;dr'ed.

p.s.
might as well just add that your looks pretty insulting in the context, no matter what your true intention was.

[Claeyt]

I haven't insulted you have I? The only people I even remotely insulted here were the usual Trolls.

What was your question about equal opportunities vs equal outcomes? I must have missed it.

na, i insulted you for ignoring it, or "accidentally" missed it when you see everything and ignore nothing.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7001&start=50#p86212
the one that your friend Tl;dr'ed.

p.s.
might as well just add that your looks pretty insulting in the context, no matter what your true intention was.

Yeah, I thought I answered that post. And my friend TL;dr'd something else, as he said. I have no idea what you're talking about. I put up a lot of those.

I'm having a bit of a problem understanding what exactly that post of yours is asking also. Maybe describe it a little more clearly.

As I answered it before: Teaching English to a student who does not speak English, helps them have better opportunities in America. I don't understand how you disagree with that.

[Tonkyhonk]

And my friend TL;dr'd something else, as he said.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7001&start=50#p86216

I have no idea what you're talking about. I put up a lot of those.

not gonna bother explaining it further if you dont get it. its a waste of time. but i see you do it often on purpose.

I'm having a bit of a problem understanding what exactly that post of yours is asking also. Maybe describe it a little more clearly.

As I answered it before: Teaching English to a student who does not speak English, helps them have better opportunities in America. I don't understand how you disagree with that.

1) i already explained why i disagree in the said post (and that was just an addition) and you probably accidentally missed it again.
oh and yes, it does help some for better opportunities, but it was not what you said. as in "to represent the notion of equal access to opportunities". that is quite an arrogance on the teachers' side, i must say.
2) now. my point in that post was that you seem to be mixing up equal opportunities with equal outcomes.
but in case, ill try to explain one by one so that even a school girl with enough vocab could understand.

your previous point was

If you're not striving towards equality, then you're striving towards inequality.

how is the current trend towards equality leading towards inequality? As to methodology of modern society to achieve equality, we can argue that for days, I don't mind. I don't think it's perfect by any means, but the goal of achieving equality of opportunity is still there. If you aren't striving for that, or are fighting the progressive forces trying to achieve it then you are against it.

people gave you examples, and your replies were not satisfactory to me and i said

@Claeyt,
so what was your "nitty gritty" in your last huge walls of text there? i dont see anything you added to the discussion. was the bottom line just about your opinion of "Murica #1" as it is? your chair seems sure comfy. 'equal opportunities' is different from 'equal outcomes'.

your reply

by Nitty Gritty I was talking about the examples that we could really dig into. They tossed out perceived examples of liberal skewing of equality and I responded. I def don't think Murica's #1 in all things, some things, but not all. This thread is a little more advanced than the HnH one, less name calling more specifics.

The only thing I meant by the end line is that the U.S. ESL programs are huge compared to most countries, because we have such a large immigrant population.

(btw, by "bottom line" i did not mean "end line", but i meant your "main point", in case you didnt realize.)

now, go back to my post linked above and reread it, please.

[Droj]

[MagicManICT]

@stax, that is very offensive. women should have "Equal Access Opportunities" for any lists. and im serious.

I was more or less pointing out the fact that the 'stay at home dads' out there think it is ok for the wife to work and provide for the family, when the truth of the matter is that they are just a lazy pieces of ****, or drug dealers. Being able to work and not working (or trying to find work) is a disservice to one's country, and they should move somewhere where that is perfectly ok...like America.

And ***** you too.

[Champie]

7.5% that's not alot, can anyone confirm that? (usa)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate
if it's correct, don't whine about it please, i thought it way more

There is plenty of debate about the veracity of Unemployment figures that are prominently displayed in headlines. The "official" numbers are challenged at http://www.shadowstats.com

[staxjax]

@stax, that is very offensive. women should have "Equal Access Opportunities" for any lists. and im serious.

I was more or less pointing out the fact that the 'stay at home dads' out there think it is ok for the wife to work and provide for the family, when the truth of the matter is that they are just a lazy pieces of ****, or drug dealers. Being able to work and not working (or trying to find work) is a disservice to one's country, and they should move somewhere where that is perfectly ok...like America.

And ***** you too.

Get a job you bum.

[MagicManICT]

Compared with some other countries in the EU (Greece for one), the US unemployment rate is much better, even when you figure in what isn't counted in the unemployment rate (and yes, if you read up on what exactly is counted as unemployed, you'll understand that 7.5% is horribly, horribly off considering we're coming out of what should have been labeled as a depression).

Oh, and guess I should make a bit more of a statement about my previous post above. A "typical" stay at home dad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=solr1W5idNY

[Claeyt]

I was more or less pointing out the fact that the 'stay at home dads' out there think it is ok for the wife to work and provide for the family, when the truth of the matter is that they are just a lazy pieces of ****, or drug dealers.

And ***** you too.

so what was your "nitty gritty" in your last huge walls of text there? i dont see anything you added to the discussion. was the bottom line just about your opinion of "Murica #1" as it is? your chair seems sure comfy. 'equal opportunities' is different from 'equal outcomes'.

Okay, I'll answer this

First off 'Nitty Gritty' in this example is referring to "getting to the essential questions or facts about the argument" or "arguing the details or points of fact".

I definitely don't think Murica #1 in most cases, but that's a whole other thread and topic. We are pretty good at integrating Immigrants and mass ESL education.

As to 'Equal opportunities' vs 'Equal Outcomes', no, I am not arguing for 'Equal Outcome'. I am arguing that the greater the 'Equality of Opportunity' the greater the 'Equality of Outcome' for those with similar ability regardless of disability, minority status, sexual preference, or other non-standard placement in society. I am also arguing for 'Equality of Opportunity' (as a societal/government goal) as a way to greater educate the people, encourage general opportunity and outcome for anyone regardless of ability, and promote socially progressive ideas against societal exclusion and it's affects, to the people of this forum (incl. Jorb)

Pure 'Equal Outcome' is of course never achievable. Fate, luck and our parents assure that. But 'Uncontrolled Outcome' would lead to a Dystopian future of Rich and poor, Have's and have not's. A general democratically placed societal and government control on 'Equality of Outcome' through income taxation, property taxation and other inheritance taxes vs a general level of basic benefits to the aged, those with disabilities, and the poor or unemployed (with the stated democratically determined goal of raising the person out of poverty or unemployment and into place as a productive member of society). Those benefits along with democratically determined aspects of Progressive government like Public Education (including ESL) or Government run Health Care are part of that 'Equality of Outcome' as well.

That pendulum of government control of wealth (as outcome) can swing back and forth to the extremes in this world, but progressives have been pushing it and stabilizing it towards Democratic-Socialism, Social Equality, Universal Suffrage, Worker's Rights, and Basic Welfare for those in need for a long time. Some of the people on this forum and, in my opinion, Jorb are pushing against us.