constructive discussion about haven and salem

[darnokpl]

Right now char development is very stupid, we are playing open pvp game where in average 10 raided camps only single person was trying to stomp me over walls, other just took most valuable items and logged out, so we have no open pvp in open pvp and perma death game without cap. Only I can see this is broken?

What does char development have to do with it?

Everything

Situation you described is pretty obvious in a permadeath game. There is no open PvP. If you want open PvP go to WoW battlegrounds or something. In a game where you can completely lose your char and progress nobody will enter open PvP

and when you lose your camp you won't lose your progress?

if there is a slight chance they will die. So zerging and ganking is all you can get.

If there is a chance you lose your farmer I agree that there is no point in fighting, but that is exactly problem I described, new people are not investing their time on alts, because they prefer to develop single char for everything. That is stupid and broken in open pvp game with perma death, cap should solve this, because new to salem people should start to create more alts.

[Procne]

and when you lose your camp you won't lose your progress?

You do, but if you are newbie / hermit and enemy attacks your place then there is nothing you can do. You can risk your character and try to defend, but unless you can stay online 24 / 7 it will only postpone enemy breaking in.
And you don't really lose the camp unless enemy decides to destroy it completely. Which is easy in HnH and not that easy in Salem.

[iotuegli]

and when you lose your camp you won't lose your progress?

You do, but if you are newbie / hermit and enemy attacks your place then there is nothing you can do. You can risk your character and try to defend, but unless you can stay online 24 / 7 it will only postpone enemy breaking in.
And you don't really lose the camp unless enemy decides to destroy it completely. Which is easy in HnH and not that easy in Salem.

you can make a village claim and endless kill agropelters, make money and profit for upkeep.


however if i'm an hermit (and i was) i had a little claim, not a huge claim full with hard structures and so on, but a simple, small, defended claim
then darwoth happenned and wiped all

was that so hard? i think not cuz if i'm hermit i'm not going to have super claims with hard things but simple small claim, for free time spending

[Etherdrifter]

This discussion has missed out two rather important mechanics.

Death and character development.

On haven death is not a complete loss, even a full change character recovers some of their lp. Your characters also have the prayer option which makes some high level stats useful even after death.

Permadeath in an mmo is a concept that is very difficult to balance, in salem I think this needs to be improved. Haven is not perfect, but if I died on haven I'd know I could recover with a little effort (as well as a few alts loaded with good curios), whereas on salem recovery is questionable if not downright unlikely.

This is also partly on how characters are developed. On haven skills/proficiencies are rather easier to level than stats, all you need to do is stick an item in your inv and log off. On salem this is quite different, you must actively feed yourself and hunt for inspirationals (often grinding certain ones for a certain skill). While changes have made this somewhat easier it is still a great deal harder than it is on haven.

Levelling stats and humours is also comparable. On salem levelling humours is easier early on than levelling stats on haven, this switches over later on as you hit the purity barrier. The difference is that on salem you do effectively become a god when you reach a certain humour level, I have little experience with combat on haven so I cannot comment if it is so there, though I have never seen something like the tribe survive there (a mark in haven's favour as a single dominating clan tends to mean you have broken mechs).

[Procne]

Haven is not perfect, but if I died on haven I'd know I could recover with a little effort (as well as a few alts loaded with good curios), whereas on salem recovery is questionable if not downright unlikely.

In HnH, if you die with full change belief you will lose... 92%? or 97% of all lp? I don't see much difference between this and losing 100%

This is also partly on how characters are developed. On haven skills/proficiencies are rather easier to level than stats, all you need to do is stick an item in your inv and log off. On salem this is quite different, you must actively feed yourself and hunt for inspirationals (often grinding certain ones for a certain skill). While changes have made this somewhat easier it is still a great deal harder than it is on haven.

I think it's quite the contrary. Curios aren't that different from inspirationals. They are very similar in obtaining. But HnH puts limits on how fast and how many you can study. New character with low intelligence will not be able to study them too fast. In Salem inspirationals are studied a lot faster. Within few hours, with proper inspirationals, you can obtain all the crucial skills. So in situation when you make second character with infrastructure intact - I think it's easier in Salem.

However HnH has the bonus of easily raising additional characters at the same time.

[dageir]

Yeah, Haven is more relaxed when it come to increasing skills through curio system. An important point.

[Dallane]

On salem levelling humours is easier early on than levelling stats on haven, this switches over later on as you hit the purity barrier.

You obviously have not played either game much if at all if you really think this.

[Procne]

On salem levelling humours is easier early on than levelling stats on haven, this switches over later on as you hit the purity barrier.

You obviously have not played either game much if at all if you really think this.

Actually, I find it pretty accurate. In Salem you can get to 20 in all humours pretty easily with only basic foraged stuff. And there are only 4 humours. However, as your humours increase you have to keep making better food and finally resort to t3 crops and "rare" ingredients like bear meat. It's not that to raise purity crops anymore, so spamming purity pumpkins or cabbage leaves is no longer that efficient.

In HnH you just have to keep eating more and more. Getting some reliable food to increase certain stats early on can be difficult as well.

[Dallane]

Getting some reliable food to increase certain stats early on can be difficult as well.

Yeah blueberries are rare i forgot......oh wait.....

[Pjotr84]

Getting some reliable food to increase certain stats early on can be difficult as well.

Yeah blueberries are rare i forgot......oh wait.....

And perch for that matter, but that only goes for INT. A starting player doesn't have easy access to PERC food, for example, which is almost of equal importance.

One crucial difference between both games is how skills are raised, though. In HH you can study curios even when offline, which isn't possible in Salem, ultimately making really high skill values hard in the latter, unless you can play a lot.