Simplifying gluttony

[Potjeh]

Seeing how devs are currently rethinking gluttony, it's perfect time to discuss how to improve it. IMO the problems with it are:
- the system is too complex for newbies, which significantly lowers player retention rate
- randomness is too high, which makes it especially frustrating at low purities (which also happen to be the only purities attainable without legacy humus)
- the difference between high purity and low purity food is too high, mainly due to how the purity multiplier is calculated
- timer-based drain is frustrating to work with (hiding how long it takes to eat something doesn't help), and ineffective at promoting food diversity which makes gluttony a very grindy experience

Now, to simplify things, I propose to remove the whole 4 events thing, and replace it with a single set of gluttony values for each food. To retain importance of different elements each food type should have an element assigned to it. The gluttony value should be calculated as max * relevant element / 100. This obviously reduces the difference between 0% and 100% pure food from 10x to 4x, which is still more than enough. But more importantly, it provides constant gains rather than unnoticeable at start and huge at the end, which made purification too much work for too little gain early on (ie when most players borequit). Heal values can still use the old purity multiplier formula since that's not so important, though I think it'd be better for reducing the learning curve if heal values were identical to gluttony values, ie there was just a single set of numbers to remember.

As for time and invariance issues, I think we should do away with the timer altogether and replace it with an invariance penalty like the one inspirationals have. This would make the game's systems more consistent, reducing the learning curve and improving player retention rates. Though I think the degradation should be steeper, something like 100%->50%->25%. Anyway, since time is no longer an issue, incomplete bars could carry over between gluttony sessions. An idea I've been entertaining is removing explicit gluttony mode and just have food give humour-raising points whenever it's eaten, though that would prevent filling up on spammable stuff like crackers when doing phlegm-intesive stuff like leveling ground, so I'm not really sold on the idea myself.

So, thoughts?

[Procne]

I agree with removing the timer, but other propositions don't seem that interesting. If anything, they make it too simple and boring.
Instead, I think it would be better to provide newbies with meaningful tutorial explaining gluttony and purity. Recent addition of slight pure foragables would be a great opportunity to teach this to newbies.

For example - during tutorial player receives 3 unpure items or of different purities, like lilipad bulb, milkweed roots and oakworth. Then he is tasked with crafting food out of them. Then he receives these materials again, but slightly pure in the same element. Then he has to craft the salad again, and compare it with previous one.
This would teach newbie about how purity affects food and that combining materials of same alchemical composition gives better food. Then, even before he can start grinding purity or farming, he can train it by foraging and cooking basic foods.
Then tutorial would show player how to read table of events, how alchemical composition affects the events etc. Then such newbie could receive a bunch 100% pure foods, preferably prepared specificaly for the tutorial, with very small gluttony values. Tutorial would explain that because one element is at 100 eating those foods would always trigger the same event. Finally player would be asked to try gluttoning with this food to see that it's only 1 event indeed.

Gluttony system isn't really that complicated once you know how it works and how to read the numbers. I think it's enough to show players how it works in practice, not only in theory.

[Potjeh]

It's not so much complicated as it is bloated. I just think there's way too much information to tell what's what at a glance. Also, since high purities will presumably always be hard to obtain, and the values for different elements vary wildly, the current system will always remain a huge source of frustration. Besides, the current system is spitting the KISS principle in the face.

[Darwoth]

just go to a FEP system like haven and the entire problem goes away, if there is a single thing from haven that i would like to see here that would be it (with the multi layer mines a close second.)

[Kandarim]

probably my main frustration with the system is the incredible amount of randomness involved. Only very pure (70-80+ elements) offer anywhere near a predictable outcome. There are only so many foods that will create a consistent result no matter what event is fired. I loved the FEP system of hnh, but I think the hunger mechanic is too artificial

In my eyes, making it even more complex might work: combine HnH's quality system (for the multiplier) with the purity system (for the event chances). The quality system is one of HnH's best features, imho, and combined with the current grind in salem (where we only need to rebuild compost bins once in a while), this might result in a much less frustrating grind.

[martinuzz]

probably my main frustration with the system is the incredible amount of randomness involved. Only very pure (70-80+ elements) offer anywhere near a predictable outcome. There are only so many foods that will create a consistent result no matter what event is fired. I loved the FEP system of hnh, but I think the hunger mechanic is too artificial

In my eyes, making it even more complex might work: combine HnH's quality system (for the multiplier) with the purity system (for the event chances). The quality system is one of HnH's best features, imho, and combined with the current grind in salem (where we only need to rebuild compost bins once in a while), this might result in a much less frustrating grind.

Interesting thought.
Dissociate the multiplier entirely from the elements, and have them only influence event chance. It would ofcourse mean, an overhaul, so 100% purity becomes attainable (if hard) again.
How to handle quality though, without going to the H&H system of needing to keep upgrading everything, from axe and saw to smelter and bakery?

[jwhitehorn]

I really like the idea of placing the inspirational curve on the gluttony foods (to promote diversity) and wiping out the invariance bar and leaving the humour bars to "spill" over from the last foods eaten. I'm not sure about the rest.

Chief PeePooKaKa
MM Tribe

[bocage]

I like the complexity and randomness. But there should be a way to start using gluttony reliably without having to understand all of the concepts. Basically, eating stuff in glutton mode increases your stats. Later you will learn about humors, biles, farming, purity, invariance, ticks, multiplier, randomness, and alchemy to glutton more efficiently and reach even higher targets.

However, it does not work that way because if you try to glutton before you have a pretty good understanding of the full concepts you end up with unbalanced stats that are difficult to bring back into balance.

Maybe the stats should be locked in some way to prevent them from growing too unbalanced at the lower stat levels. Something like below level 25 gluttony will not increase a stat more than 5 beyond the lowest stat.

That way new players could be told to glutton anything they want, in any order, and have fun and worry about the more complex mechanics once they reach stats that trigger "advanced" gluttony, at which point the safety block would be turned off.

Bocage

[twram]

I like the complexity and randomness. But there should be a way to start using gluttony reliably without having to understand all of the concepts. Basically, eating stuff in glutton mode increases your stats. Later you will learn about humors, biles, farming, purity, invariance, ticks, multiplier, randomness, and alchemy to glutton more efficiently and reach even higher targets.

However, it does not work that way because if you try to glutton before you have a pretty good understanding of the full concepts you end up with unbalanced stats that are difficult to bring back into balance.

Maybe the stats should be locked in some way to prevent them from growing too unbalanced at the lower stat levels. Something like below level 25 gluttony will not increase a stat more than 5 beyond the lowest stat.

That way new players could be told to glutton anything they want, in any order, and have fun and worry about the more complex mechanics once they reach stats that trigger "advanced" gluttony, at which point the safety block would be turned off.

Bocage

When i first started playing, I read a guide that said keep your humours close together as you always need to get the top humour you have to be able to raise the others, so I did. It's not hard to understand that concept, in fact it's easy to understand. Perhaps a little help message in game would be appropiate but I wouldn't go further than that.

[bocage]

guide that said keep your humours close together

Yes, that concept is not difficult. But to accomplish that you need to calculate what needs to be eaten in order to raise your lower stats without accidentally raising the highest stat again. There are several more complex factors that have an impact on being able to do that reliably, and on being able to continue doing that as the stats increase and food requirements are changing.

From OP

the system is too complex for newbies, which significantly lowers player retention rate

I don't want the game dumbed down for the masses. I want a complex and thought provoking system and game. So if players are quitting because of complexity, figure out some way to break people in more gradually besides requiring that they read all of the guides and wiki first. Yes, they could read a gluttony guide before they start playing. As well as an agriculture guide, trading guide, base building guide, survival guide, hunting guide, village guide, cash shop guide, artifice guide, tracking guide, wiki and forums.

Bocage