Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Forum for suggesting changes to Salem.

Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Postby dreadlus » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:40 pm

In light of recent discussion regarding the raid mechanics and the way they affect general gameplay and inspired by threads such as Ender's (http://forum.salemthegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4205), I decided to post my idea to stop griefing and lead people into raiding the way it can actually do good to the game.

What I suggest is implementing a sort of Karma System. For those of you who don't know, Karma "is the concept of "action" or "deed", understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma). Basically, every action has a consequence.

What would this mean for Salem? This is what I propose:

1- Karma bar
Every player would have a karma bar, going from -x to +x, passing through neutral karma (0). A positive value would mean good karma and vice-versa. Besides granting some bonuses and debuffs, the values could also be reflected cosmetically, as suggested in another thread -> http://forum.salemthegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4201

2- Bad deeds = bad karma
Every bad action a player would do would decrease his karma. Now what exactly are those "bad" deeds? One I think everyone can agree with is crime. So invading, looting, destroying and murdering would yield bad karma for those who did such actions.

*This is the main reason I thought of this mechanic. Right now, alot of people are complaining about defences, raiders destroying so easily what was so hard to build and raise. The problem here isn't raiding at all - it's griefing. Currently, these 2 entirely different activities are pretty much treated the same way by the game: you attack a player/claim, get debuff, leave scents. However, the game doesn't take in mind the core difference between them, which is purpose.

To simplify, I'll consider 2 types of criminals: raiders and griefers. For me, a raider is a player actively looking for targets worth attacking (by worthy I mean targets that are meaningful to the raider because they have valuables, control over resources, or simply on a "Kill or be killed" basis); on the other hand, a griefer is a player who just goes on a rampage, destroying and killing everything he can in his path with mostly no gain from his activity besides the "fun" of it (which most of the time means pwning n00bs). There is a huge difference between these 2 playstyles: raiding is a means of accomplishing something in the game - you take valuables from others for your own good, you destroy the competition and establish dominance in your region, you kill that annoying neighbour who keeps dropping loads of frogs in front of your gates, all that while having fun-; on the other hand, griefing is simply attacking and destroying for the sake of it - since noobs are the targets most of the time, there isn't anything actually valuable to the perpetrator, all is done for the fun (this is a massive issue since for 1 griefer to get his "kick" many others have to suffer the frustration of seeing their efforts destroyed - this is the reason griefing is so harmful to any game's population, since these situations are a big turnoff specially for new players).

Since raiding and griefing can be so much different, the game needs to take that difference into consideration, penalizing griefing to a point where it would be frankly unappealing and thus forcing these players to find a different way of having their fun. The karma system could be a way to deal with this problem - it could calculate a sort of development rating for players/claims (for players: calculated from humours and proficiencies, maybe with a contribution from amount of silver on the player; for claims: area of the claim, type/amount of buildings, type/amount of goods inside the claim) and compare those ratings between the victim and the attacker (the bigger the difference, the more negative karma is yielded to the attacker). Since the difference of ratings between a noob and a vet raider would be considerable, this would help reduce the appeal of attacking small newbie camps compared to more developed settlements, while still allowing raiders to do so if they're really determined. And why would this happen? Because there would be penalties for racking up bad karma, of course.

By raising the negative karma past certain thresholds, people would get debuffs. These could be limited to combat actions or also affect other activities, such as farming and crafting in general. One way for these debuffs to severely harm griefing would be making a character who racks up enough bad karma either 1) remain in the world persistently, even after logging off (so it could be tracked and dealt with) or simply 2) have the scents allow for summoning from anywhere in the world. Of course, for this to punish griefers without harming raiding, the rating comparison would have to give penalizations appropriately.

While my initial thought for bad deeds were only crime activities, the system could be extended so that non-pvp actions can also be considered "bad". These could be chopping down trees, killing wildlife, draining resources from the land (iron, lime, clay, ...); the negative points gained with these activities could be balanced out by crafting stuff using those resources.

3- Good deeds = good karma
All actions contributing to greater good or one's own well-being should fall in this category. So cooking, farming, gardening, building and crafting in general would yield good karma. Some of these good actions act as balance for bad ones - example: if you hunt deer, you'll get negative karma, but also a hide, a brain and meat. By cooking some of that meat you'de get good karma instead, evening out the bad one you got from killing the deer.

These activities would allow players to work off their bad karma (from raiding or any other activity), allowing them to avoid bigger penalties from racking up too much. It would also do a great damage to the current problem with raiding alts, which have basically the skills needed to get the crime skills, and are used solely for that purpose - this would force players who have these alts to invest more in them, get more skills besides the crime ones (in order to have the means of working off the karma) and actually use them for more than just raiding, because if they don't these chars will just keep accumulate karma and get summon-killed or logged-off-killed freely (this way, reducing significantly the viability of this kind of alts).

On the other hand, having good karma would also give some buffs past certain thresholds. Since you'd get good karma from crafting, farming and such, the bonuses could be like +plenty added to fields when farming, bonuses to soil digging/carrying, etc etc...

Again, this idea started out as a way to reduce griefing ingame, so I haven't put much thought on how it could be applied to non-pvp aspects. It could also be that crime would be the only bad karma generator and everything else would yield good karma. However, the system must be set up in a way that allows raiding to be a viable playstyle, turning it into a more meaningful and planned activity, while also penalizing griefing to a point it would be pretty much inviable to be practiced.
I trust you guys to point out all the good and bad stuff about my idea, ways to make it better and hopefully something good can come out of this thread that will help the game ;)

/discuss away!
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Re: Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Postby sabinati » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:09 pm

no, it's not even worth discussing.
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Re: Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Postby MagicManICT » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:30 pm

How is this different from previous suggestions on the matter?

In case you haven't noticed from games like UO and EVE, these sorts of systems are pretty much pointless, anyway.
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Re: Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Postby Mereni » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:06 pm

sabinati wrote:no, it's not even worth discussing.


So don't post if you don't think it's worth posting about. Try to be a little more constructive if you want to criticize.

I do like the idea of alignment in a game. But even though I'm generally pretty carebare, the one time I did play a game with alignment, I was always tagged 'chaotic evil' just because it was more fun and challenging. So, alignment isn't always going to deter people.

I don't think this idea would work though because most people who raid have a raiding character they keep separate from their farmer. We've all seen people who raid with their farmer get summon killed the next day. But if your raider is separate from your farmer, the raider will never do 'good deeds' like cooking or farming. That means that even if you don't destroy buildings when you steal stuff, your raider is still going to get to the maximum bad karma, it'll just happen a bit more slowly.
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Re: Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Postby Dallane » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:04 pm

Fairly terrible idea that won't work

I wish mods would lock these spam threads
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Re: Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Postby dreadlus » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:40 pm

Mereni wrote:I don't think this idea would work though because most people who raid have a raiding character they keep separate from their farmer. We've all seen people who raid with their farmer get summon killed the next day. But if your raider is separate from your farmer, the raider will never do 'good deeds' like cooking or farming. That means that even if you don't destroy buildings when you steal stuff, your raider is still going to get to the maximum bad karma, it'll just happen a bit more slowly.


And don't you think doing that is wrong? By having a main that does all the important work, which in turn is used to feed raiding alts, raider settlements just turn into alt farms.. Wars between these groups will become a fight of who can dish out alts faster. And if a "carebear" settlement decides to retaliate against raiders, even if they're ready and able, it'll just be a battle of how many waves of alts they can endure before losing eventually.

What you said was actually an outcome I intended with this. After all, there is a reason why most ppl who raid keep the raider separate from the farmer main - they just can't risk getting that main killed. Raiding alts however don't seem to suffer from this, since they can (not easily, but still easier than it should) be replaced by other alts brought into the world by that same, precious main character.

Dallane wrote:Fairly terrible idea that won't work

I wish mods would lock these spam threads


Actually I searched for previous threads and couldn't find anything about this topic, which is why I opened this one.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I'm sure it took you a few hours to come up with such a brilliantly thought out reply!
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Re: Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Postby Dallane » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:04 am

took 3 hours to trash one that took you a week to write with the way you perceive time
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Re: Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Postby Darwoth » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:24 am

heres an idea, stop being a defenseless incompetent and then you could fight back against your attackers instead of flocking to the boards and making stupid posts like everyone else.

the devs have offline summoning, tracking, permadeath and asset destruction. this means that you already have the tools to "nerf griefing" by responding in kind, use them or carry your basket of rabbit meat to a different supergrid.
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Re: Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Postby Ass_Kraken » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:37 am

What a terrible and unoriginal idea.
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Re: Karma - A way to nerf griefing

Postby colesie » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:50 am

Try not to cross the line into trolling with your posts in Ideas, if it's a bad idea at least give reasons
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