Relax on new players

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Re: Relax on new players

Postby Taipion » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:09 pm

campercamper wrote:By salem standards who needs friends or approval. I guess it speaks for itself if the game is dying.


Don't draw for straws with excuses like that, your "idea" is not a viable alternative, if you would take the time to think of something more solid, that could actually replace the current hypothermia implementation, instead of just circumventing it's basic purpose, I bet people would be more willing to discuss it with you. ;)
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Re: Relax on new players

Postby campercamper » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:16 pm

The game is dying lol
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Re: Relax on new players

Postby Rifmaster » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:58 pm

I think most older players have this unjustified resentment to "normie" gamers. People who don't take games that seriously, people who are prone to quitting a game after losing a few too many pixels.

The reason i think it's unjustified is because there is no harm in letting these players play the game. Hold their hand through hypothermia, help 'em out with disease and a bunch of other things. However I believe there should still be a filter to separate the ones who will graduate to real salemites from those who will ragequit. That filter should be other players. If they are weak, they will be killed. That's good fun for the killer and filters the newbies. The chance of a player coming back after his first death is a lot higher than if he dies in the first 20 minutes of playtime.

There's a lot to think about here and I think we should reduce it to the fundamentals i.e: Should there be a filter? What should the filter be? Is having a large skill/commitment gap between players a good or bad thing? etc.

#devilsadvocate
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Re: Relax on new players

Postby Taipion » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:02 pm

Rifmaster wrote:I think most older players have this unjustified resentment to "normie" gamers. People who don't take games that seriously, people who are prone to quitting a game after losing a few too many pixels.

The reason i think it's unjustified is because there is no harm in letting these players play the game. Hold their hand through hypothermia, help 'em out with disease and a bunch of other things. However I believe there should still be a filter to separate the ones who will graduate to real salemites from those who will ragequit. That filter should be other players. If they are weak, they will be killed. That's good fun for the killer and filters the newbies. The chance of a player coming back after his first death is a lot higher than if he dies in the first 20 minutes of playtime.

There's a lot to think about here and I think we should reduce it to the fundamentals i.e: Should there be a filter? What should the filter be? Is having a large skill/commitment gap between players a good or bad thing? etc.

#devilsadvocate


So, are you saying Salem should be more of a casual game like wow, or raw pvp without the open world sandbox part, or both?
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Re: Relax on new players

Postby Methuzelah23 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:12 pm

Rifmaster wrote:I think most older players have this unjustified resentment to "normie" gamers. People who don't take games that seriously, people who are prone to quitting a game after losing a few too many pixels.

The reason i think it's unjustified is because there is no harm in letting these players play the game. Hold their hand through hypothermia, help 'em out with disease and a bunch of other things. However I believe there should still be a filter to separate the ones who will graduate to real salemites from those who will ragequit. That filter should be other players. If they are weak, they will be killed. That's good fun for the killer and filters the newbies. The chance of a player coming back after his first death is a lot higher than if he dies in the first 20 minutes of playtime.

There's a lot to think about here and I think we should reduce it to the fundamentals i.e: Should there be a filter? What should the filter be? Is having a large skill/commitment gap between players a good or bad thing? etc.

#devilsadvocate


I think the resentment only comes when those types of players advocate for changes to make things EVEN easier. Of course there is no harm letting them play. I would argue that their hands are already held, there is a tutorial, a help popup, a wiki, a forum, a discord, and plenty of helpful people. I don't personally think the timing of the death matters, whether its 20 min in or years, either you're the determined type or you're wishy washy, nothing we can do changes what kind of gamer someone is. I don't know what other tools we could give, but changing a system that is pretty mild, to accommodate people that don't want to use the tools at their disposal seems very unsalem. :) Filtering by combat is a novel idea but is fairly niche, and mastery of the mechanics of salem is just another milestone to reach on the road to becoming a salemite. Having creative and inventive ways to kill is important, and making certain mechanics easier and more dumbed down has an adverse affect on that.
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Re: Relax on new players

Postby Rifmaster » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:41 pm

Methuzelah23 wrote:
I think the resentment only comes when those types of players advocate for changes to make things EVEN easier. Of course there is no harm letting them play. I would argue that their hands are already held, there is a tutorial, a help popup, a wiki, a forum, a discord, and plenty of helpful people. I don't personally think the timing of the death matters, whether its 20 min in or years, either you're the determined type or you're wishy washy, nothing we can do changes what kind of gamer someone is. I don't know what other tools we could give, but changing a system that is pretty mild, to accommodate people that don't want to use the tools at their disposal seems very unsalem. :) Filtering by combat is a novel idea but is fairly niche, and mastery of the mechanics of salem is just another milestone to reach on the road to becoming a salemite. Having creative and inventive ways to kill is important, and making certain mechanics easier and more dumbed down has an adverse affect on that.


I'd say mechanics like hypothermia, disease and madness are already only a challenge for new players, therefore making them even easier wouldn't really affect vets much at all. However I think the ideal approach is holding the player's hand through a more difficult mechanic in the early game, and thus making the player blame himself for failing, rather than ragequitting and blaming the game. It should be more like don't starve, where you die a million times but keep wanting to play again because you feel like you could do better, and you don't blame the game even if it was a bit unfair and whatever killed you took you by surprise.
In fact I think don't starve is a fantastic comparison, because it is a very successful game that is arguably even more difficult than salem.
I really believe that we could hold the interest of most players, as the gamers checking out salem are probably not coming from CoD and FIFA, and instead would probably enjoy salem, given the proper guidance.

Taipion wrote:
So, are you saying Salem should be more of a casual game like wow, or raw pvp without the open world sandbox part, or both?


I'm saying salem is very bad at keeping new players interested in it, and that we should move the filter down further into the game, or maybe even remove it entirely? I don't really know, if you do know of something better and you care to elaborate on it i'd be happy to read all about it.
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Re: Relax on new players

Postby nosfirebird » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:46 pm

i do have to say if i would have frozen into a block when i first started the game years ago i would have quit also. the mechanic doesnt do anything but cause new players to quit before even trying the game.i wish the mechanic woulda been in the game when i started so i wouldnt have wasted so much time due to devs abandonment of the game.
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Re: Relax on new players

Postby Taipion » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:57 pm

Rifmaster wrote:I'm saying salem is very bad at keeping new players interested in it, and that we should move the filter down further into the game, or maybe even remove it entirely? I don't really know, if you do know of something better and you care to elaborate on it i'd be happy to read all about it.


The question is, where you want to draw the line, and what you think the games intentions is?

Salem is made to be about discovering things, and not everything is on the wiki like witchcraft.
I'd say the info that pops up when you first encounter hypothermia is enough for anyone dedicated to deal with it properly,
if you want your hand to be hold even more, that would not be Salem-ish, at least that's my opinion on that.

And I'd say there should be ways for people to die other than darkness mobs and other players.
Which are naturally most dangerous to new players, and less of a problem for experience ones.

Hypothermia especially, but also madness, both are lacking a bit in depth and detail, and could be much better,
but they fulfil their core purpose pretty good I'd say, that is, posing a lethal thread without adding pointless chores.

So yes, they could be made better, but I have no idea at hand currently, this has been discussed at length back then,
and I guess there are quite a few things people came up with, like the heat from fires and torches which was actually implemented.
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Re: Relax on new players

Postby Rifmaster » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:16 am

Taipion wrote:
Rifmaster wrote:I'm saying salem is very bad at keeping new players interested in it, and that we should move the filter down further into the game, or maybe even remove it entirely? I don't really know, if you do know of something better and you care to elaborate on it i'd be happy to read all about it.


The question is, where you want to draw the line, and what you think the games intentions is?

Salem is made to be about discovering things, and not everything is on the wiki like witchcraft.
I'd say the info that pops up when you first encounter hypothermia is enough for anyone dedicated to deal with it properly,
if you want your hand to be hold even more, that would not be Salem-ish, at least that's my opinion on that.

And I'd say there should be ways for people to die other than darkness mobs and other players.
Which are naturally most dangerous to new players, and less of a problem for experience ones.

Hypothermia especially, but also madness, both are lacking a bit in depth and detail, and could be much better,
but they fulfil their core purpose pretty good I'd say, that is, posing a lethal thread without adding pointless chores.

So yes, they could be made better, but I have no idea at hand currently, this has been discussed at length back then,
and I guess there are quite a few things people came up with, like the heat from fires and torches which was actually implemented.


What does "Salem-ish" mean exactly?
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Re: Relax on new players

Postby Chrumps » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:29 am

Madness is fine as it is. It is quite manageable, even more with milk. If you are having problems with madness, you must be doing something wrong. Perhaps it could be better but it is not currently driving away as many people as hypothermia does.

Hypothermia on the other hand still needs a lot of polishing.
For once the help screen shown on the first page does not mention warm stones which are easiest way to deal with cold and can be made in the fireplaces in providence. It also does not mention entering a house which is even easier way to temporarily shake off cold effects. It does instead recommend more advanced means that are not readily available to a new player.

Second, there could be some permanent fires setup along paths in providence, allowing new players to move semi-safely around the town, at least far enough to grab some reeds. Sadly, as I have been told it would still require JC presence to setup such things.

There could be some larpy things like repurposing braziers to provide heat for players, there could be a homeless shelter to provide easy and extremally risky homestead so returning players could logout, there could be an NPC handing out fish broth or warm stones for some cheap stuff like berries or just branches. But all of these require coding, not just placing structures, so I do not expect it to happen soon if ever at all.
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