get rid of the key-alt

[Taipion]

Oh, but, but, but... I could store the master key in a locked metal chest and access it with attuned slave keys, it's only 16 wrought iron bars for such a chest, that's dirt cheap!
- Then anyone breaking in can carry the chest away and later open it or drop it into a river, leaving your without options to make any further keys or locks, and eventually forcing you to replace all locks, just like it is now, only more work.

You call me stupid and think that anyone can walk away with a locked metal chest to open it later... Let alone that they can drop it in water... Really try dropping a chest in water.

I say the system is fine make a key alt don't make a key alt who cares.

Ok, fine, I can't keep track of every little thing, so you can't drop a metal chest into water, but you can run away with it and, if you really really want to, spend the time later on your own claim to open it, in coldsnap times sleds move quite fast so that's no problem "getting away" with it.

I don't call you stupid, sorry if I did.

So who cares if you make a key alt or not? Well, no one does, besides your doors when your character dies.

[jakhollin]

Oh, but, but, but... I could store the master key in a locked metal chest and access it with attuned slave keys, it's only 16 wrought iron bars for such a chest, that's dirt cheap!
- Then anyone breaking in can carry the chest away and later open it or drop it into a river, leaving your without options to make any further keys or locks, and eventually forcing you to replace all locks, just like it is now, only more work.

You call me stupid and think that anyone can walk away with a locked metal chest to open it later... Let alone that they can drop it in water... Really try dropping a chest in water.

I say the system is fine make a key alt don't make a key alt who cares.

Ok, fine, I can't keep track of every little thing, so you can't drop a metal chest into water, but you can run away with it and, if you really really want to, spend the time later on your own claim to open it, in coldsnap times sleds move quite fast so that's no problem "getting away" with it.

I don't call you stupid, sorry if I did.

So who cares if you make a key alt or not? Well, no one does, besides your doors when your character dies.

Well the doors dont have feelings so... Tried to run, tried to hide, break on through to the other side.

I keep saying the system is fine because making other changes to it is going to result in the same situation where something that seems unnecessary will have to be performed to protect from x or y. Remove the attunement portion and thieves get
the keys so you have to defend against that with metal boxes that are locked with only an alt having the key. (More Work). Make the master key require no attunment same boat. Give the key to the direct descendant and you remove the feeling of true loss from death (in my opinion). Besides if you are killed in your claim chances are your descendant is going to get it as well if he/she goes back to the claim.

[Taipion]

Well the doors dont have feelings so... Tried to run, tried to hide, break on through to the other side.

I keep saying the system is fine because making other changes to it is going to result in the same situation where something that seems unnecessary will have to be performed to protect from x or y. Remove the attunement portion and thieves get
the keys so you have to defend against that with metal boxes that are locked with only an alt having the key. (More Work). Make the master key require no attunment same boat. Give the key to the direct descendant and you remove the feeling of true loss from death (in my opinion). Besides if you are killed in your claim chances are your descendant is going to get it as well if he/she goes back to the claim.

Please note:
The "suggestion" to remove attunement for the master key and/or all keys is NOT part of this suggestion/thread, but an attempt to derail it.
If you or others feel this is necessary, then go ahead open a separate thread about it.
Mods: Please keep an eye on this and either remove the derail or move it to its own thread, thanks.

Also I find it funny how you say "doors have no feeling" and that it is nothing, yet a newly created alt may be able to destroy a door on his own claim, but can't replace it.
Then again you say not losing the keys removes the feeling of true loss (which is still not there if you use a key-alt), please, get your feelings sorted before posting.

Having a way to pass keys down to your heir removes the need to have one alt, as someone already rightfully said, the necessity to have an alt is already an indication of a broken game mechanic.
In this case I assume it is not "broken", but simply not finished yet.
Passing down keys to your heir either through making a will (hand in keys while doing so) and your heir gets them in the mail, or having the inheritance npc hand them out, or remove the work altogether by attuning keys to accounts, would be at least better than how it is currently.

I acknowledge that this would in fact increase the "safety" by a very little ammount, for as of now someone who breaks into your claim could at least steal/destroy the keys of your key-alt as well (though not use it), or if you place the alt (his leanto) in a remote place, then it would still not be 100% safe.
I therefore offer my honest compassion to all those hardcore griefers that are hurt or afraid by such a proposition, but the majority of the players will probably welcome such a change, and each alt less is a good thing for Salem.

[Shrapnel]

Call me a carebear for this, but i like the attune system for keys.. it takes a bit of the edge off of being killed by another player out in the open, knowing that your base is still safe, and that not ALL of your progress has been compromised.

If the keys where made so that anyone could steal and use them, it would turn it right back into the Haven system, adding another alt to the list for holding keys and having that second client open in the background for when you need to open the door. Wasted effort on the devs part to solve an issue that would just make another one worse.

Current system is fine, leave it alone, but i agree that keys should be inherited for a fee or something.

[DarkNacht]

Slave keys should never be able to change owners for any reason. Having attunement of master keys be inheritable isn't a terrible idea, but they shouldn't automatically be mailed to the character as this allows keys to exist outside the game world. Any mechanic that allows an object to leave the game word and then return is a bad one. Keys, like everything else in Salem, should never be 100% safe.

[TotalyMeow]

Taipon, please pull the stick out of your ass and report a post of you have such a big problem with it. I've been here the whole time; if I thought the topic was being derailed, I'd have edited it. But I really think all this discussion has been good. It's made it pretty clear that key holding alts are a bad idea. Sure, have a master key attuned to some little alt that isn't likely to be killed in a raid or anything, but the key sure won't be safe on the alt. It has to be hidden somewhere obscure. And in that case, what difference does it make if it's preattuned to an alt or auto-attuned to the descendant? It let's people be a little lazier, but it also has the potential to make things more annoying for towns.

[jakhollin]

Well the doors dont have feelings so... Tried to run, tried to hide, break on through to the other side.

I keep saying the system is fine because making other changes to it is going to result in the same situation where something that seems unnecessary will have to be performed to protect from x or y. Remove the attunement portion and thieves get
the keys so you have to defend against that with metal boxes that are locked with only an alt having the key. (More Work). Make the master key require no attunment same boat. Give the key to the direct descendant and you remove the feeling of true loss from death (in my opinion). Besides if you are killed in your claim chances are your descendant is going to get it as well if he/she goes back to the claim.

Please note:
The "suggestion" to remove attunement for the master key and/or all keys is NOT part of this suggestion/thread, but an attempt to derail it.
If you or others feel this is necessary, then go ahead open a separate thread about it.
Mods: Please keep an eye on this and either remove the derail or move it to its own thread, thanks.

Also I find it funny how you say "doors have no feeling" and that it is nothing, yet a newly created alt may be able to destroy a door on his own claim, but can't replace it.
Then again you say not losing the keys removes the feeling of true loss (which is still not there if you use a key-alt), please, get your feelings sorted before posting.

Having a way to pass keys down to your heir removes the need to have one alt, as someone already rightfully said, the necessity to have an alt is already an indication of a broken game mechanic.
In this case I assume it is not "broken", but simply not finished yet.
Passing down keys to your heir either through making a will (hand in keys while doing so) and your heir gets them in the mail, or having the inheritance npc hand them out, or remove the work altogether by attuning keys to accounts, would be at least better than how it is currently.

I acknowledge that this would in fact increase the "safety" by a very little ammount, for as of now someone who breaks into your claim could at least steal/destroy the keys of your key-alt as well (though not use it), or if you place the alt (his leanto) in a remote place, then it would still not be 100% safe.
I therefore offer my honest compassion to all those hardcore griefers that are hurt or afraid by such a proposition, but the majority of the players will probably welcome such a change, and each alt less is a good thing for Salem.

Really.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogkoskneNII you missed the joke sigh... I feel old... : (


BTW if you have descendants take the key then most people when raiding will automatically drop the keys on the ground before they kill you. So yeah still a work around. Like you said which puts us in the same place having some obscure key alt. So why change something that is not broken. Just ride out the storm. I am having a "The Doors" day....

[Taipion]

BTW if you have descendants take the key then most people when raiding will automatically drop the keys on the ground before they kill you. So yeah still a work around. Like you said which puts us in the same place having some obscure key alt. So why change something that is not broken. Just ride out the storm. I am having a "The Doors" day....

And passing the keys along with your will would fix this, why not?
Makes perfect sense that your heir magically gets some of your skills n stats, all your property and riches, but no keys?! ...seriously?

[Taipion]

[...] It's made it pretty clear that key holding alts are a bad idea. Sure, have a master key attuned to some little alt that isn't likely to be killed in a raid or anything, but the key sure won't be safe on the alt. It has to be hidden somewhere obscure. And in that case, what difference does it make if it's preattuned to an alt or auto-attuned to the descendant? It let's people be a little lazier, but it also has the potential to make things more annoying for towns.

Good to see that you agree on the key-alts in general.

Yes, it would cause a little problem for towns in that a descendant would have keys, but for that he would have to have a master key to start with, which he could as well use to make another master key to attune to an alt, then use this alt to make another master key and attune it to his heir after the ancestors death, so technically, this has NO (negative) implications for towns!


Ok, I see the idea has not been understood really, I guess that's my fault for bad explanations, sorry!

Let's try again:

Make a will:
- as it is now, with the addition that
- you can deposit a single keyring filled with keys, and
- your heir will be auto-attuned to them, also
- he will get the keyring through the postmaster or the inheritance npc, whatever works better
note: The inherited keyring may only be filled with master(copy)keys, as it would not make sense to inherit a slave key anyways

(optional:) Also, instead of the auto-attuning to the heir, it could be that keys are attuned to accouts instead of characters, makes things even easier.


This would ofc have the implication that you would be able to "hide" a single keyring per character, that would be perfectly safe, which is maybe a very tiny bit against the main idea of Salem, but would work great, and to "claim" the keys, you need to die, and death is an adequate price I'd say. There are cheaper ways to "hide" stuff 100% safe.

Also, you could drop the whole idea of keys altogether, it only cripples newbies that try to make their first fence and then lack the iron for keys and locks, does not make much sense that a lock and some keys are more expensive than a whole shiny fence anyways!
Instead, make it so that you can set per each door which groups of your kin may open it, would save us all a lot of trouble!
No? Don't like it? Well then better go with the key-inheritance idea, huh!?

[DarkNacht]

Also, instead of the auto-attuning to the heir, it could be that keys are attuned to accouts instead of characters, makes things even easier.

This idea is so bad it proves that you have no idea how to play this game.