Fundamentals?

[TotalyMeow]

Gluttony, on the other hand, is a tricky system and I don’t feel qualified to speculate much on what would or would not work. I agree with Darwoth that it works well enough (though I do have nostalgia for the earlier incarnation). I will say this, though: my above point about additions and alternatives rather than sweeping changes probably holds here as well. Your craving-per-hour approach strikes me as wrong, but the craving idea is not a bad thing in and of itself. Better would be a simple graphic display during a gluttony session representing temporary cravings or, for that matter, temporary dislikes. Immediately after the gluttony session starts, a craving window accompanying the current list of food groups would appear, showing both a food group and a specific food item randomly. The food group craving would come with, say, a 50% full & fed up reduction per item consumed, while the specific craving food would come with a 100% reduction and a .5X effectiveness bonus. Once a humor point was gained, the craving would reroll. Below the craving window would be a dislike window, showing a food group and a food item with the inverse bonuses of the ones above. I could even see a dynamic system emerging, similar to H&H’s personal beliefs system, related to one’s culinary preferences and gastronomic adventures. If a player eats nothing but deviled beaver and nutcracker suites (during gluttony sessions or not), then that player might find that they only like the meat group and dislike everything else, certainly a double-edged sword during gluttony sessions. Over the course of a session, the single craving would eventually be “filled,” leaving no remaining possibilities for bonuses. I can’t imagine such a system being difficult to implement either, since it would be little more than a matter of counting what was eaten. This type of approach wouldn’t be a sweeping change, either, since the old system would still exist. Rather, it would add another layer of complexity and would foster the creation of certain kinds of mid-level alts while making the development of higher level characters a bit more interesting. But, like I say, this is a complex system already and my suggestion might have other drawbacks.

Your speech here about Gluttony is assuming Gluttony Sessions and the F&FU timer will still exist. They would not. We want to simplify things a bit, not add to the complexity. The idea is that cravings occur several times an hour while you are playing and you can try to satisfy such a craving with your food you eat to regen anyway. You eat a matching food group or exact match and get a new craving right away so you still can have a 'session' but there will now be one regen/gluttony value to each food instead of separate gluttony and regen values, plus the bonus added for an exact match; we don't have to figure out a fair time debuff, Food Groups become must less complicated. New foods become must easier to add and balance.

The idea that eating a lot of the same food makes you crave more of it is interesting, though I would think such a practice would make you tired of the food so you want it less.

[Otis]

Your speech here about Gluttony is assuming Gluttony Sessions and the F&FU timer will still exist. They would not. We want to simplify things a bit, not add to the complexity. The idea is that cravings occur several times an hour while you are playing and you can try to satisfy such a craving with your food you eat to regen anyway. You eat a matching food group or exact match and get a new craving right away so you still can have a 'session' but there will now be one regen/gluttony value to each food instead of separate gluttony and regen values, plus the bonus added for an exact match; we don't have to figure out a fair time debuff, Food Groups become must less complicated. New foods become must easier to add and balance.

The idea that eating a lot of the same food makes you crave more of it is interesting, though I would think such a practice would make you tired of the food so you want it less.

So indirectly related to this new gluttony mechanic, Can you consider another container (food bag/pouch, study bag/pouch, etc) that we can put our inspirations or food in that is different from the backpack or inventory? I currently tend to mostly have my study materials in my pack to avoid crafting conflicts, etc and it sure would be nice to have a different container since I will be carrying more variety of foods to eat if the craving comes upon me. Not looking for more capacity, but a way to separate them. Just a thought....

[Pordy]

My biggest problem with the gluttony system, that you have to find a "formula" to efficient level up your humors, and this formula always based on only few food / food group.
I very like to see some changes that isnpire you to create various food from one group.
There is so many exciting food recipe, but i will never bother to create them because they dont worth it the 'work'.

Mass producing a few food, its much lesser fun than focusing the most variabilty.

About the personal charchter progression, i absolutely support the idea, when you do certain thing, that can help you to lvl up your charchter.

[agentlemanloser]

Gluttony, on the other hand, is a tricky system and I don’t feel qualified to speculate much on what would or would not work. I agree with Darwoth that it works well enough (though I do have nostalgia for the earlier incarnation). I will say this, though: my above point about additions and alternatives rather than sweeping changes probably holds here as well. Your craving-per-hour approach strikes me as wrong, but the craving idea is not a bad thing in and of itself. Better would be a simple graphic display during a gluttony session representing temporary cravings or, for that matter, temporary dislikes. Immediately after the gluttony session starts, a craving window accompanying the current list of food groups would appear, showing both a food group and a specific food item randomly. The food group craving would come with, say, a 50% full & fed up reduction per item consumed, while the specific craving food would come with a 100% reduction and a .5X effectiveness bonus. Once a humor point was gained, the craving would reroll. Below the craving window would be a dislike window, showing a food group and a food item with the inverse bonuses of the ones above. I could even see a dynamic system emerging, similar to H&H’s personal beliefs system, related to one’s culinary preferences and gastronomic adventures. If a player eats nothing but deviled beaver and nutcracker suites (during gluttony sessions or not), then that player might find that they only like the meat group and dislike everything else, certainly a double-edged sword during gluttony sessions. Over the course of a session, the single craving would eventually be “filled,” leaving no remaining possibilities for bonuses. I can’t imagine such a system being difficult to implement either, since it would be little more than a matter of counting what was eaten. This type of approach wouldn’t be a sweeping change, either, since the old system would still exist. Rather, it would add another layer of complexity and would foster the creation of certain kinds of mid-level alts while making the development of higher level characters a bit more interesting. But, like I say, this is a complex system already and my suggestion might have other drawbacks.

Your speech here about Gluttony is assuming Gluttony Sessions and the F&FU timer will still exist. They would not. We want to simplify things a bit, not add to the complexity. The idea is that cravings occur several times an hour while you are playing and you can try to satisfy such a craving with your food you eat to regen anyway. You eat a matching food group or exact match and get a new craving right away so you still can have a 'session' but there will now be one regen/gluttony value to each food instead of separate gluttony and regen values, plus the bonus added for an exact match; we don't have to figure out a fair time debuff, Food Groups become must less complicated. New foods become must easier to add and balance.

The idea that eating a lot of the same food makes you crave more of it is interesting, though I would think such a practice would make you tired of the food so you want it less.

No, I understood the proposed mechanic. I simply did not like it and was offering an alternative incorporating the craving concept without abandoning the preexisting system. I should probably explain my distaste for the proposed system, though. The simplified system being proposed reminds me far too much of a Sims game: cravings become analogues of the little life goals minigames that pop up in Sims-style games. I, for one, hate Sims-style games with a passion, since I become a slave to the mechanic, a “player” who exists to essentially press a button when an in-game timer demands that I do so. I don’t want my decision to increase a character to be dictated several times an hour by an arbitrary timing system, since that detracts from my agency. Prompt occurs to cook X food, therefore I do and eat. I then decide to do something else, such as hunt or mine, but another prompt occurs so my flow is interrupted to return to the demanded cooking task, repeat ad infinitum. And yes, I would be required to comply to the gluttony demands, since the nature of this game is to increase one’s character’s strength. This would also make it much harder to create useful alt characters (which is likely the point behind the proposed system change) and would make the process of leveling up a current character vastly more tedious than it is now, contrary to what some might think, since it would demand we play according to the system’s schedule, rather than our own. As it is now, I can make at my leisure a few hundred or even thousand food items and gluttony when I please, which is not really that difficult a thing to do once one is established. Darwoth’s point is well-taken: you would need to have a huge supply of everything in sheds, but then you would still be slaved to the task of searching containers whenever the pseudo-session prompt appeared. I have no desire to play that way, thus I would likely become entirely static in biles.

I should also point out that our gluttony sets would be rendered pointless (unless you redefined the rules again), the Sugar & Spice proficiency would require redefining again, and the Quaffed & Quenched debuff would be orphaned. That’s a lot to redefine. I would vote against any work on the Gluttony system since it would clearly require more work at this point that the last rework did. There are more pressing concerns. Item #1, by contrast, is more limited in scope and thus more doable, or so it seems to me from the peanut gallery.

I’m also not convinced that new foods should be that difficult to balance, since foods are essentially divided into power categories anyway. You could have six or eight or a thousand mid-range corn dishes using different combinations of ingredients that all restore/gluttony for roughly the same values. All that would change would be that some people would prioritize certain ingredients based on play style. No harm in that save the complexity, but, as I said, complexity isn’t a problem—it is a reward for upper-level players. Higher tier cooking skills, as in 200 prof range, could simply add more options. I realize you want to simplify, and many in this community might agree, but my preference is always to be offered as much depth and arcana as possible to prevent the experience from becoming stale. I have mentioned this before in a different context: I once pointed out that the first thing modders of games like Skyrim or whatever do is add hundreds of variations on the creatures, ranging from size and strength variations to simple reskins. Players appreciate variety. Give me two dozen baroque corn dishes and bears of every size, color, and hp value and I’ll be happy. Again, I might be the only one here who wants that approach to worldbuilding, but there it is.

As for the craving point I made, I meant simply that one’s eating habits would determine one’s preferences, but during a gluttony session overuse would mean that, during the session, you no longer wanted what you overate, thus you would be tired of it for the session.

And you must forgive me if it seems I am making speeches. I realize the trend in forums like this is for brevity to the point of confusion, but I am, professionally speaking, used to stating my cases in as clear and complete a manner as possible.

[TotalyMeow]

Well, I hope you don't mind if I edit down to main points...

I don’t want my decision to increase a character to be dictated several times an hour by an arbitrary timing system, since that detracts from my agency. Prompt occurs to cook X food, therefore I do and eat. ... it would demand we play according to the system’s schedule, rather than our own. As it is now, I can make at my leisure a few hundred or even thousand food items and gluttony when I please, ...

I agree with this sentiment, but luckily this would not be the case. The way it would work is that you can go about your daily chores while sometimes getting cravings. If you ignore them and just eat, then you'll just regen. If you pay some attention and match the group because you're carrying a couple different foods around, you get some gluttony progression basically for free. If you then decide you want to get serious you can start matching the cravings exactly and getting immediate rerolls and quick advancement. If you've cooked a good variety of foods, you can advance a lot in a very little time. You can also have ingredients handy to make some of the quicker things if they come up. Or you can use the option(s) we will provide to reroll your craving to something you like better. Or alternatively just wait that undesirable craving out for a few minutes.

I should also point out that our gluttony sets would be rendered pointless (unless you redefined the rules again), the Sugar & Spice proficiency would require redefining again, and the Quaffed & Quenched debuff would be orphaned. That’s a lot to redefine

These things are true, but not as difficult to redefine as you think and that would be done before we implement a new system.

I’m also not convinced that new foods should be that difficult to balance,

Much more difficult than you think and one of the main reasons we haven't made many new foods lately and why we want to make this change. Another big reason being that so many people do seem to have a lot of trouble learning the system. We're hoping we can give this new idea just as much potential for complexity and rewarding people willing to work harder while making it easier to understand overall.

Players appreciate variety.

Sure, I can appreciate wanting to be able to customize your sessions, but since we do have a couple ideas for items/mechanics that can be used to alter your cravings, you'll still have that. We also do intend to keep the variable food system intact and expand on it. And with a system that is much easier for us to add to, we will indeed add to it. I have a whole list of domestic meat recipes, orchard fruit recipes, extra cabbage and vegetable recipes, and more just waiting.

[Vexus]

So far I see Procne being the lead advocate AGAINST the proficiency points per task. I of course see the warnings against having a system that makes inspirationals obsolete, but when have you ever known me to be 'generous' with a nice thing? The example of 5 Hammer & Nail per board sounds pretty darn accurate to what I was thinking and if all minor tasks were in that arena of gains I think you wouldn't feel empty handed when doing a task for a few hours that was purely helping a friend but certainly not 'ignore' inspirationals just to cut 300 boards instead of just studying your coffin plank.

Gluttony is my larger frustration because as Meow mentioned the existing system has handicapped the implementation of Cabbage, Domestic Meats & Fruit food groups the way we have wanted to. EVERY little food represents a large problem with balance and all for a system that so many seem to not understand or enjoy in the first place. Darwoth was 100% correct tho that the majority of the changes proposed would hurt the ease of alt-creation. Something I have a hard time caring about but something to consider for those who make a habit out of heavy alt-usage.

Hmm how did I miss this thread until now.

I am against proficiency points per task, at all. You may flip burgers all day but that does not mean you are getting better at flipping burgers unless you invest the time and effort to learn how to flip burgers better. I find this a simple example of how AFK task/proficiency grinding should be avoided. No one gets better without trying to get better. Adding in a system where you can get better just because you produce work takes away from why the work should be done in the first place.

If I chop 50 trees, drag them back, saw them into boards, place timber piles, and wait 5-6 real days afterwards to see the fruit of my labor, the reward from that is knowing someone else on the server has to do the same amount of work to achieve the same goal and is basically holding back their character progression to do so. Another example would be witchcraft on Popham. I fully understood that seeking the witch clues for literally dozens of hours over many weeks means I would be 'behind' when it comes to my character itself. I felt it was worth the time investment because it was something I wanted to learn and had no idea about otherwise.

The unit of work is the reward. To add some kind of instant gratification, adding in more inspirationals solves the problem. It solves the problem because the person doing the work can choose to donate his newly acquired items, or keep them for himself. In the same light, someone sawing boards may ignore his Coffin Planks and add them into a timber pile, whereas someone paying attention may set those items aside, adding to some kind of reward for diligence.

One of the beautiful things I consider is that if Darwoth is by himself or in a small group, the current system means that with the right people I can outproduce him at some point. He is not untouchable because at some point he is chopping down a tree, sawing boards, adding them to timber piles, and waiting for days. Because he does not progress his character during this time, it means that if I have the right group, one person can match Darwoth's work output, while someone else is hauling in bears, and another is cooking and planting and potting, and another is grinding their Thread & Needle, and another is gluttoning their session, and so on and so on. That possibility means with the right application of people, knowledge and work, anyone can be challenged.

I would say solve this issue by devoting time to creating 3 to 5 inspirationals (or inspirational components) for each type of work. We should have more than just a coffin plank from sawing boards. More inspirationals gives the person doing the work a choice - study the item, give to a friend, add it to the timber pile, or store for an alt - while not forcing them to study the item because they are close to getting a point anyway.

If the idea is to limit alts, then by all means, make it so you only gain skills through work, and you will look at a new guy sawing logs and think "Ah he is wasting my H&N points!" Which, I think, is counterproductive in a group setting. Someone producing the work of making timber piles is investing into their future - and their group if they have one - and should be valued by their group in that they are willing to sacrifice personal character advancement for the good of the group.

Continuing with the limiting of alts - some current systems do a good job already. Having an alt throw a log on a sawbuck is not generally efficient. They can do it, and be productive, but if they only get 30 boards out of a tree and I can get 60, it is much better than I do the placement of the log.... so how about changing it so that the yield from sawing depends on the sawing player's H&N rather than placing the log on the sawbuck being the only point of benefit? These kinds of little tweaks would go a long way, where an alt or new player can help out but it will generally be much more efficient if you do it yourself. I would have to suggest, that if I work my H&N to 200, I shouldn't get a +0 proc on placing a log anyway, I should get, say, 1 more board for every 10 H&N I have, maybe scaling it so every 100 you add even more, similar to the gluttony bonus. Make the bonus on sawing the log, not placing the log, and alts become less valuable.

I was hoping to keep this short... fuuu.....

Gluttony. The main problem with gluttony is some things are so stupid to make and have no greater value. I don't oppose changes to gluttony even though I feel the current system rewards those who pay attention and try to figure things out. Still, it is quite difficult to balance everything due to the number of variables involved. One thing I do like is a shared gluttony session. This would promote teamwork and allow people to sit at a table (as in, making chairs for a reason, a large gluttony table for a reason, etc) and perhaps share in the yield of the feast. Not a replacement for the current system, but an incentive to group up, to play at the same time, to gather for the group, place it all on the table and glutton together, with some added bonus for doing so, like halving negative procs or something.

Gluttony I can see changing to that craving system. We currently have a system which takes a good amount of time to learn and even then, you may not know the best system, and some systems may be better to others due to their nearby biomes. Still, I am interested in a craving system. It would reward carrying around some foods. It would bring an incentive to get to Advanced Cooking - sometimes you will need to eat a Bluebeary but may get by with just a berry item since you cannot cook the more difficult item easily. Large sessions would still play out, because you would be able to hit many different specific foods as you have prepared them and are carrying them. I would say you wouldn't even need to change how the gluttony bonus works at all, nor the F&FU debuff. If you crave a Berries on the Straw made of Blackberries, you can eat it and gain a point in Black Bile, no matter your humours, and because you matched the item perfectly, you will have a craving for something else with no wait. If you then crave a Wildberry Pie, you may not have it on you, so you may eat a Berries on the Straw made of Cranberry, gaining a humour point, but ending your combo, and incurring a 15 minute wait (based on the last item you ate for a point maybe?) until your next craving. If you had a Wildberry Pie, and ate it for a point, and then ended your session, you would incur the 5 hour wait time for filling up on that big pie all by your lonesome.

Yes indeed the more I think about it, the better it looks. I can see how cooks can literally prep a feasting table with all the foods - not because of the gluttony value of the food, but because of the food diversity - and the player then sitting and feasting will be able to eat away, knowing he has all the foods and food types covered. Unfortunately, this seems to not have a place for purity then. That is something to be addressed.

And /no, no you may not write any more, fingers, go back to playing, now!/ ah ok nevermind. Good stuff and I look forward to seeing some things which may bring my friends back into the game.

[HolyLight]

I seem to notice how often the devs here mention "As you are eating food to regen anyways".

Who actually eats food any more to restore after they have an established settlement ? Tea made eating to regen redundant.

Maybe you could change the way tea works and incorporate it into the new glutton sessions you describe to offer an over time regen like it already does but only when consumed as part of a craving session.

Who eats all the time without drinking anyways ?

This could be a good way to introduce more ranges of drinks as well.

I want my Breaded fillets with french fries and a beer <-- What a real craving session.

[Tulgarath]

I seem to notice how often the devs here mention "As you are eating food to regen anyways".

Who actually eats food any more to restore after they have an established settlement ? Tea made eating to regen redundant.

Maybe you could change the way tea works and incorporate it into the new glutton sessions you describe to offer an over time regen like it already does but only when consumed as part of a craving session.

Who eats all the time without drinking anyways ?

This could be a good way to introduce more ranges of drinks as well.

I want my Breaded fillets with french fries and a beer <-- What a real craving session.

Changing tea would have to be a different discussion, because that inpacts far more than gluttony.

[riker88]

John Carver

I like your ideas on #1 Personal Progression tied to work. I Don't like your ideas on #2 Gluttony. Although I'm concerned on #1 that it would relate to a waste of resources, chopping down 200 trees that you don't need seems like Work to me also, I think however your on the right track..

[pietrko]

I think gluttony is ok, besides on thing:
Basically,
I don't like the fact the it is possible to build one-man army self-sufficient superhero here that is 100 times stronger than a newbie (The Chief had > 1000 biles).
Why this is bad? Salem is sandbox game mmo game, most of the fun is from player to player interaction.
But if you have 1000 biles and all the skills:
1.Why do you need soldiers if you a one man army?
2. Why group and make town if you are master of everything?

I think that large part of advanced character's power/influence on the others should have it source in player's position in the eyes of community, in his wealth etc - like in real world.
Not in his stats. I am talking about advanced characters here, their power level should flatten, but there still should be difference newbie - veteran.

I hope you agree that the goal of this game is to maximize fun for majority of players.
By allowing the existence of semi-gods, that ascend to their position (and keep it) only through grinding stats (you can do this solo)
and not thanks to bringing some value recognized by other players you are not rewarding a player interaction and fun for the majority.
Note, I'm not pointing to anybody I just don't like the mechanics.

In short i think that there should be some cap on biles and its importance should be flatten somehow, so instead grinding till 300 to solo Darkenbear - you create and lead a pack of hunters to kill the bastard.