Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and Flow

[nonsonogiucas]

Warning! This is an essay about game design theory.
As such it is not intended as neither a request nor a critique. If you wish to participate please remember we are discussing a theory that could be only marginally related to Salem implementation.

I'll start with the premise of this video about design where it is explored the concept of motivation and habit as a part of the enjoyment of a game. Around minute 10 Zane Claes introduces the notion of "Game Loop" (do not confuse with rendering loop) as the core mechanic that induces players to come back and play the game more. Also soon after the notion of "Flow" is introduced as a way to describe what keeps a game interesting.

Game Loop
A Game Loop is basically a Feedback Loop, a sequence of actions that can be summarized with the following steps:
1) Cue: something catches the player's attention, a problem, a need, a stat is going down, a mob aggroes, etc...
2) Routine: the player responds with an action deemed appropriate, this can be viewed as the "work" part of a game
3) Reward: positive or negative feedback from the game

In principle, a game that gives interesting, comprehensible Cues as to what a player should do and then positively Rewards the player for enacting the appropiate Routine succeeds in establishing an addicting Game Loop, also said a Positive Feedback Loop. Players will come back for moar.
A lot of games today are based solely on this principle, main example is (cue) "Kill 10 rats", (routine) the player kills 10 rats and is then (reward)ed with something.

Flow
You can look more about what Flow is about here and here. Long story short, there is a sweet spot between boredom and anxiety where the task proposed by each successive Cue is difficult enough for the player to enjoy trying to beat it. This sweet spot obviously moves over time as the player gets more "Capable" of solving issues, where with capability I mean the sum of both character's skill and player's skill.

Easy example of maintaing the Flow is the same typical mmorpg where after giving the Reward of "kill 10 rats" mission the player is promptly assigned a "kill 10 bigger rats" mission, hopefully keeping him engaged.
Interesting fact is that "Maintaining the Flow" requires the player to fail sometimes. A failure increments a player's capability by giving him a chance of of becoming more skilled in playing the game. Failures also increment the Reward of successfully completing that same task satisfying the need for competence.
Of course different players will have different level of tolerance both towards Boredom and Anxiety on the Flow diagram.

Inner & Outer Loops
Most non trivial games obviously present more than a Loop. A single player RPG could have grind/combat loops in its Inner part, a Main Loop where you defeat bosses and advance with the plot and than an External Loop that encompasses the whole story. Think for example the original Diablo game where, after killing Diablo players were awarded the possibility of playing it all over again at a higher difficulty level, thus maintaining Flow.


The Weak Spot
I will dare say that the weakest spot in each Game Loop (be it the innermost or outmost) is the assesment of the reward. After successfully or unsuccessfully completing the loop, every player will evaluate if engaging in another iteration is a desirable course of action. In other words a player unconsciously decides if the game is or not in Flow.
For example if (1) at some point the player is awarded in such a way that subsequent tasks present a rate of success that is too high, for example by giving out an OP combination of gear, the game Flow will tend towards Boredom. As the difficulty decreases other Rewards also become meaningless and the player eventually loses interest in the game and quit.
An other example is (2) presenting the player with problems that are too difficult for his capabilities. After a certain number of attempts, the absence of a Positive Feedback will produce Frustration and player will quit.
The last example is that of a game where (3) with failure is associate a very harsh Negative Feedback that actually reduces player's capabilities, thus forcing to move backwards in the Flow. Here the negative feeling can be strong enough to induce Anxiety instead of interest, the player will eventually evaluate not worthy to engage in the whole Outer Game Loop again with the fear of being sent all the way down again without accomplishing much.

Permadeath
Permanent character death doesn't necessarily mean getting out of the Flow. The Game Loop that encompasses a character life however must be tailored on the possibility of permadeath in order to mitigate the Negative Feedback just enough to remain in Flow.


I would like to leave at you, intelligent reader, the possibility to identify Game Loops in Salem and explore the relation between those Loops and Permadeath. I would also like to explore how Permadeath relates to character growth versus player growth.

[Thor]

Well a sandbox mmo without any goals and a free open world isn't really following much "flow" or "loops"..
Perhaps no external quests or such will result to boredom, well that and a quite steep learning curve to form even the simplest personal settlement.
Getting killed and/or raided most likely results into anxiety. Getting very negative forum feedback for pretty much anything is very common in Salem too, so that would create even more anxiety

[Procne]

Sandbox MMO doesn't mean there are no goals. Quite the contrary, there are many different goals. It's just that those are offered to a player, not forced.
Almost every game functionality has some outcome, a "reward" allowing player to progress. It's up to player to choose what to do.

In Salem you can build stuff, grind biles or just wreck someone else

[Thor]

Sandbox MMO doesn't mean there are no goals. Quite the contrary, there are many different goals. It's just that those are offered to a player, not forced.
Almost every game functionality has some outcome, a "reward" allowing player to progress. It's up to player to choose what to do.

In Salem you can build stuff, grind biles or just wreck someone else

Well they are all personal goals, but I guess it don't really matter if they are personal or forced though.

[nonsonogiucas]

Well a sandbox mmo without any goals and a free open world isn't really following much "flow" or "loops"..

That is a really interesting point, thank you for expressing it!
You are right in saying that from a very high point of view a sandbox is a game does not demand the player to accomplish a specific task. I do not think though that sandbox game is or must be completely devoid of game loops. A few examples are:

Minecraft crafting:
Cue: see tier 1 resource (wood)
Routine: acquire and process the resource
Reward: tier 2 capable tools
- start loop again by gaining stone -

Minecraft survival: (I would consider you right if you said that the survival aspect is not a part of the sandbox thou)
Cue: Monsters spawn at night and in darkenss
Routine: Build lights and lit enclosed spaces
Reward: Safety from monsters
- end of loop, expand the area if needed -

Salem, proficiency gain:
Cue: Inspirationals raise proficiencies
Routine: Forage / build inspirationals
Reward: Raised proficiency

Salem, skill gain (encompasses proficiency gain):
Cue: Skill has requirement of proficiencies
Routine: grow max proficiencies if needed then accumulate proficiency
Reward: unlock crafts / moves

and more...

If you allow me then I would rephrase it like so:
A sandbox game does not have a fixed Outer Loop like a main plot, but instead very small Inner Loops and atomic Rewards for you to play with

Perhaps no external quests or such will result to boredom, well that and a quite steep learning curve to form even the simplest personal settlement.
Getting killed and/or raided most likely results into anxiety. Getting very negative forum feedback for pretty much anything is very common in Salem too, so that would create even more anxiety

I think you are also basically correct in this analysis.

The steep learning curve brings Salem to a very hard-core type of Flow experience, that could just mean that Salem is meant for hard-core players but it is surely something one should keep in mind. JC has stated there will be attempts at improving this aspect of the game to increase accessibility and for that has my solid +1.

Losing an entire base could be seen as the closing of a Loop, a negative one but still one that you can learn from. In this case I advocate the anxiety to the fact that most probably you as player are not present while that happens, thus you are negated the experience of seeing your defenses fail. It is hard to learn how a city has fallen if you see only the smoking ruins.

Forum I don't want to comment on. If a game is very good forum drama does not affect you much. But if it actually isn't or it beats you very hard then probably you'll be looking for at least a supportive community... again it seems Salem was and still is intended for very tough gamers.

[Thor]

While there indeed are loops, they are well hidden.

When I first started playing, I played completely alone for a good 2 or 3 months at first.
I remember reading forums and salem wiki probably more than I played the game to get the hang of it at first.
I just spawned in the middle of nowhere after talking to wilderness guide, I then immediatly started picking stuff up from the ground and noticed I could study some of it.
There were no cues on what to do, besides study stuff from ground. I just opened wikipedia and scrolled through all skills there were and set my "personal goals".
My couple IRL friends found even that too tasking and immediatly gave up, there just wasn't enough cues.

And community is a big part of the game, no one can deny it. It affects how we play the game.

[nonsonogiucas]

While there indeed are loops, they are well hidden.

When I first started playing, I played completely alone for a good 2 or 3 months at first.
I remember reading forums and salem wiki probably more than I played the game to get the hang of it at first.
I just spawned in the middle of nowhere after talking to wilderness guide, I then immediatly started picking stuff up from the ground and noticed I could study some of it.
There were no cues on what to do, besides study stuff from ground. I just opened wikipedia and scrolled through all skills there were and set my "personal goals".
My couple IRL friends found even that too tasking and immediatly gave up, there just wasn't enough cues.

And community is a big part of the game, no one can deny it. It affects how we play the game.

My thoughts exactly.
I would however separate the community management issues in a dedicated thread because it is actually an other issue entirely and a really compilcated one too.

For Loops to be fairly hidden it is a good thing I believe, if the game mechanics constantly jump out at you it kind of breaks the immersion... One thing I remember of the very first minute of play in Salem is a nice sense of immersion, a little scary because of lack of knowledge, but really heavy on immersion. Cues on the other hand must not, for example knowing of the existence of a skill while not receiving a cue on the existance and whereabouts of the base forageable needed for it is really bad... leaves the player clueless and generates frustration.

Finding stuff on the ground in this regard in general could not be a bad idea, it is pretty natural and thematic. If I were to write a tutorial-ish interface I would just have the icons on the minimap flash out to attrack attention... maybe also open up a "thought bubble" on the character saying something on the lines of "interesting... I want to study this...", but not much more.

Maybe in a separate thread we could discuss how the absence or presence of an overarching plot, an Outer Loop, or single mechanics could actually have a role in shaping the community. I have a feeling about this that since the main plot suggested seems to be "sleep time slaughter" we also have that same type of community...

[Horis]

i do see there is a loop in salem. raising abilities and humours do follow the pattern. I will say that i think permadeath should never be in question. However as the game progresses for the player there is a feeling that there is no progress towards relief from anxiety of losing an advanced claim. The logical relief that there is security in numbers when building a town is not present when there is no accountability for anonymous characters. There is a gap between the benifits of cooperative achievements and the security of being a hermit.

Where does the benefit of working together slightly outweigh the risk? Right now the only time cooperation outweighs the risk of betrayal is when raiding. Where raiding players have little to lose unless they are solo and everything to gain. We don't see that risk benefit payout while working together in a village. It is feasible to be a Jack-of-all-trades and reach end-game production without the need to team up. Let's look at incentives for group effort in production.

In agriculture there is no need to stockpile. You can grow all year-round. The economy is stagnant if there are no shortages. No reason to trade No time sensitive events that warrant production schedules that demand more than one farmer in order to have a consistent supply of food.

Mining and metallurgy demand is only local. The need for metals is for personal use only, and even that is minimal. I don't know if the scope of this game can afford more uses for metals but in order to create server wide demand metals need to be in more recipes. Perhaps even requiring that some of the new player recipes create demand. This would increase the benefit of trade/cooperation since it would be costly for new players to get metal production up before they need the metals.

I would like to look further into the other materials such as wood and stone, etc, but my attention span fails. Let's just consider that if some of the materials were useful for buildings other than those of personal use (think bridges, roads that benefit travel time with a cart because porting to boston is fine but trade requires safe passage to other players' claims as well). These are ideas that would probably not fit in the present scope of the game, but the idea is that the reward for community building in the game is prestige, rather than the bragging rights gained by destroying and trolling. Again, I'm not sure what vision the developers have for Salem. Right now the game is enjoyable for players who like to craft and players who like to upset other people. There is no community building in this game as it is, unless you count the forum anger as a community.

It's all up to Mortal Moments to hammer out there vision.

[Thor]

Well what really got me hooked into Salem in the first place was that it was so damn hard!
Harvesting my first field of cereal felt so damn good =P Not to mention achieving other, bigger stuff.

[nonsonogiucas]

I will say that i think permadeath should never be in question.

I also do not think permadeath is a mistake per se. I do think however that permadeath as a game mechanic is not something you can just throw in like it was aestestics. Having demonstrated its potential of ruinously break the feedback loop, I dare say the majority if not all other aspects of the game must take permadeath into consideration!

I remain of the opinion, for example, that character progression that requires a long time (I'm not venturing into the definition of "long" cause I'm still talking theory here) to get to a "competitive" level is not in principle applicable to a permadeath scenario.
Also consider that for a fatal mistake to be, in the end, still fun there must also be a favorable ratio between a players acquired knowledge (learn from the mistake) and the assets lost. If you lose too much in comparison to the lesson learned you probably won't even feel compelled to try again.

I will try to make an example to prove my point.

Let us consider a tatical multiplayer FPS. Let us argue for a minute that in your typical multiplayer FPS the thing that makes you competitive, useful to the team, apart from raw player skill, is your position and orientation on the map (ex. you gained a sniping vantage point on a spot your allies are trying to capture).
What happens when you are shot? You go back to spawn: you lose all the vantage you gained in the previous loop.
Considering how fast the action in a FPS is, when you have to start from spawn again you probably have lost your part in that particular action. So you see how an FPS have a more or less permadeath in the sense that you lose a lot compared to how fast the game loops on itself. However, given that the map is so small you can immediately try a new approach so every loop remains interesting. (it also depends on a lot of factors I know, for example the map must be interesting enough to make you experiment with different approaches)

Now I ask, would that FPS be fun if you had to run for 5 minutes just to reach the center of the map where the actual battle is?

Imagine you get shot, restart from spawn, ok lets go there again... you travel for a whopping 3 minutes, get shot by an enemy camping behind enemy lines. Go back to respawn. Now you won't be running in a camper anymore, so after 7-8 minutes you reach battle zone where your allies are hidden in a trench and probably no one wants to engage because if you get shot again you have to spend another 5-8 minutes running all the way from spawn to the fray.

What about an FPS where the map actually is really big?

Consider Planetside 2. Planetside 2 map is very big, and you can get shot behind the first corner. When a team organizes to attack an enemy base however a spawn beacon can be deployed. If you die, you can respawn at the beacon. The principle behind it is that you can lose all the accumulated advantage but you can also be clever enough not to. So if you organize an attack and fail to defend your spawn beacons you have to start all the way down to your faction main gate but you have learned a valuable lesson, and you can be confident it can be done the right way.

(Ok there is also the Arma series. In that case though the loop is just one, people do not respawn, next evening everyone starts again from scratch so you do not really lose that much)

To recap, my point is:
In order for a game to remain fun, aka maintain the Flow, failures must cost you something that is proportional to the time you need to invest in recuperating and the ambitiousness of what you attempted. You should also be able to rely on the acquired experience (player xp, not char xp) in order to avoid making that mistake again and again. In other words you must always gain something, even from defeat.

Now apply this to Salem the Crafting MMO where months worth of effort can be lost by being murdered while attempting to... well nothing ambitious really, most of the time you will be attempting to not be seen by anyone else. And what do you learn from that? You learn not to engage socially with anyone else, unless you are sure the other is way less skilled or competent than you. Since you really can't team up, cause mistrust, the only viable strategy for exacting revenge is to try and survive enough to be way more powerful than your murderer... however since growth is mainly subject to the passing of time and only marginally affected by actual player skill you just can't do if the other party is also an active player.
In other words you lose all you had without any sort of personal gain.


I'm sorry if this all sounds a tad pretentious from me. Also remember I'm mainly talking theory, I do not claim that the fix, if at all needed, is simple. I'm just trying to demonstrate how, in my opinion, this way of mixing permadeath with other mechanics does make the game difficult but not in a fun way.

Feel free to try to convince me of the contrary .
Cheers!