Your opinion about the Civil War in Ukraine

[Claeyt]

[
I completely agree that negotiation is the key here. The Government won't agree to new elections because they know they would lose them. Yanukovich won this election through internationally documented election fraud. .

Who should I believe, the Claegue or BBC news?

His reputation was tarnished by election abuses in 2004 but he bounced back later, winning the 2010 presidential election - an election declared clean by international observers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25182830

You're right I should have said he got back into office through a tainted election.

I totally agree that the country is split down the middle between the poorer more rural Russian East and the Urban better off West. He wouldn't win another fair election, I can tell you that. The constitutional changes were the bigger deal when it came to his power in office.

[naosnule]

1st Question: would that "peaceful occupation" have been legal? Yes, in theory there are "peaceful occupations" that are not legal, depends on the law.

2nd Question: Was it illegal to attempt to remove the protesters?

Non-legal political peaceful occupation is illegal but armed response is never the answer to that..

That's one place where you and I disagree. It should be the duty of the police and government to uphold the law at all costs, even if the costs are horrifying. If the law is badly designed for whatever reason: change the law.

[DemonEyes]

Picture of the Police using a molotov cocktail against protester's yesterday before the gunfire.

Gotta admit thats a fairly shocking picture, the question begs, why are they using molotov's when they have access and funding for much more effective incendiaries?

Some things do make me wonder, how the human race survived so long with retards on all sides who would kill, injure and maim people with the slightest excuse..

[jesi]

Claeyt and ysbyrd have both suggested that the ukranian president is resorting to force to show he is still in control. Another perspective being presented at least here in France is that the use of force is to stymie an even more forceful response from Putin who, it is speculated, will intervene militarily if he thinks the ukranian government has lost control of the situation.

[ysbryd]

1st Question: would that "peaceful occupation" have been legal? Yes, in theory there are "peaceful occupations" that are not legal, depends on the law.

2nd Question: Was it illegal to attempt to remove the protesters?

Non-legal political peaceful occupation is illegal but armed response is never the answer to that..

That's one place where you and I disagree. It should be the duty of the police and government to uphold the law at all costs, even if the costs are horrifying. If the law is badly designed for whatever reason: change the law.

How can you change a government supported law? Even if it is wrong? If the government will not debate the issue, then there is nothing you can do except protest.

To Jesi, that may be the case, but for Putin to threaten, and for Putin to act, are two different things. The major export Russia has at this time is gas, and with large finds outside the bounds of Russia, it cannot risk the sanctions that would follow.

[naosnule]

How can you change a government supported law? Even if it is wrong? If the government will not debate the issue, then there is nothing you can do except protest.

You can elect representatives that do share your views during next election. If you still belong to the minority during next election: too bad for you, that's what democracy is about: the tyranny of the majority.

[Claeyt]

Claeyt and ysbyrd have both suggested that the ukranian president is resorting to force to show he is still in control. Another perspective being presented at least here in France is that the use of force is to stymie an even more forceful response from Putin who, it is speculated, will intervene militarily if he thinks the ukranian government has lost control of the situation.

I've thought about that as well but the Russians are going nuts about the EU sanctions. Sanctions mean that the Natural gas pipelines get turned off. The EU would pay a lot more for heat but with the giant boom in Natural gas in the East Coast of the US the loss of Russian gas is lessened. The Russian economy is absolutely tied to Natural gas sales that run through Ukraine. You guys have the ability to turn it off. This isn't a temporary war in a break away province in Georgia. This would be a decade long occupation of a hostile Kiev, a major city, Lviv and other smaller cities and the whole of Western Ukraine. It would mean immediate sanctions against Russia and Ukraine and the destruction of the Russian Economy.

They won't invade but they would support an Eastern Ukraine breakaway through military supply.

[Claeyt]

How can you change a government supported law? Even if it is wrong? If the government will not debate the issue, then there is nothing you can do except protest.

You can elect representatives that do share your views during next election. If you still belong to the minority during next election: too bad for you, that's what democracy is about: the tyranny of the majority.

You guys are getting off the topic of the constitutional changes, the anti-protest laws and the jailing of the opposition leaders. Those are the important things.

As a side note 10 pro-government ministers have broken from Yanukovich and are calling for an emergency meeting of parliament. We could see a no-confidence vote today.

[ysbryd]

From bbc...
11:49:

News from the west of Ukraine: Kanal 5 TV has shown footage of the governor of the Ukraine city of Chernivtsi, Mykhailo Papiyev, being surrounded by angry protesters shouting "people are dying" outside the seized regional administration building.

Mr Papiyev can be seen in the footage carrying a handwritten letter dated 19 February which reads: "Statement: I ask you to accept my resignation from the post of head of the Chernivtsi regional state administration".
Seems the government doesnt all agree with the way things are going either...

[Claeyt]

From bbc...
11:49:

News from the west of Ukraine: Kanal 5 TV has shown footage of the governor of the Ukraine city of Chernivtsi, Mykhailo Papiyev, being surrounded by angry protesters shouting "people are dying" outside the seized regional administration building.

Mr Papiyev can be seen in the footage carrying a handwritten letter dated 19 February which reads: "Statement: I ask you to accept my resignation from the post of head of the Chernivtsi regional state administration".
Seems the government doesnt all agree with the way things are going either...

He's a western opposition member. More importantly are the 10 ministers of the pro-government party breaking from Yanukovich and the head of the Ukrainian parliament calling for an emergency session. Also....

"A senior municipal official in Kiev is reported to have resigned from President Yanukovych’s Party of the Regions, over a decision to close the metro system.

Interfax reported that city boss Vladimir Makeyenko has resigned from the ruling party and ordered the metro to be reopened.

It was closed in an attempt to stop protesters reinforcing Independence Square from outside. Earlier the head of the metro system had threatened to resign if the system was not reopened."

He was a member of the ruling party and a member of Yanukovich's 'Party of Regions'.