The Ghost of Christmas Future

[Stormie]

I am agreeing with Thor, a wipe after beta is almost about normal...I have played a lot of MMO, MMORPG, Crafting MMO's, what have you..Most of the all do a final wipe after beta is totally over.. That may be the case here, maybe not, but I would not say "There will never be a wipe".

[Ikpeip]

Good evening,

This bit does not inspire confidence:

08:56 loftar > I sure hope so, Urist. I think the changes improve the game a lot.
08:57 loftar > Not only in the current state of the game, either, but they also make it more meaningful to add new stuff in the future.
08:57 loftar > I think one of the primary reasons why it was starting to feel meaningless to add new stuff to Salem was because the previous systems made new content kind of meaningless.

I'd be curious what new stuff added to Salem felt "meaningless." It's been quite a while since we had new stuff, and the most recent updates were not hampered by previous systems, but by half-hearted design.

-Alchemy was indeed meaningless, but the problem was (and is) its implementation - a cyclical system which does not improve its output with each cycle is of no help to anyone.
-Frogs and crabs are relatively meaningless (although I have known some players to be fond of the new inspirational), because they don't have much of a use. Some sort of decoration item, cooking them to provide decent humor regeneration food, making them a component in some sort of augmented alchemy process, or making them provide some buff when cooked and eaten (similar to snuff - or a poison antidote that doesn't come with the laxative's side effects) all would have made this little critters more meaningful. Hell, even making them a low-level inspiration that can be used without much prep (a stray chestnut type item for coastal regions) would've worked. Implementing them so that a player could walk over them would also have made them less irritating - but instead we got useless critters that are hard to pick up and get in the way.
-Poisonous mushrooms were meaningless - but again, not due to flaws in pre-existing systems, but because they added a nuisance in what was one of the few convenient systems for new players, and turned an uncommong-but-useful item (witch's hats) into a relatively useless item. Adding insult to injury, this update was supposed to be a prelude to beneficial effects, of which the poison was just a poorly-picked pilot - but the follow-on never appeared.

I'm not saying the existing systems don't need improvement. But blaming the failures of previous updates on the pre-existing systems indicates a lack of understanding in what went wrong, which will hamper efforts to right the ship.

The primary problem Salem is experiencing right now is an inability for most players to improve their characters and bases. Character development relies on cooked foods, and to improve cooked foods requires finding quality nodes of granite, lime, and water for each element. This is not a fun nor entertaining system, and does not present the players with meaningful choices - either you trade with someone who has found these nodes, or spend tens of mindless hours searching for a single node (or hundreds of hours searching for all of them). Base building is limited by the small variety of assets needed (mine/smelter/crusher/anvil/kilns/carp shop/drying racks/leather tubs, and a place to throw your board piles) - and plenty of abandoned bases with most or all of these facilities in place exist all over the landscape.

Faithfully,

-Paul the Paymaster

[Cawalox]

He meant gluttony system. No point in introducing new food (new recipes, animals and so on) when you can get your character where you want with only 3 kinds of food). Whit new system they will probably make you eat a bunch of different food so spamming pies wont do it.

I believe tribe destroys base infrastructure, so if anyone finds something on Plymouth its just cause tribe didnt get there first.

[alloin]

Good evening,

This bit does not inspire confidence:

08:56 loftar > I sure hope so, Urist. I think the changes improve the game a lot.
08:57 loftar > Not only in the current state of the game, either, but they also make it more meaningful to add new stuff in the future.
08:57 loftar > I think one of the primary reasons why it was starting to feel meaningless to add new stuff to Salem was because the previous systems made new content kind of meaningless.

I'd be curious what new stuff added to Salem felt "meaningless." It's been quite a while since we had new stuff, and the most recent updates were not hampered by previous systems, but by half-hearted design.

-Alchemy was indeed meaningless, but the problem was (and is) its implementation - a cyclical system which does not improve its output with each cycle is of no help to anyone.
-Frogs and crabs are relatively meaningless (although I have known some players to be fond of the new inspirational), because they don't have much of a use. Some sort of decoration item, cooking them to provide decent humor regeneration food, making them a component in some sort of augmented alchemy process, or making them provide some buff when cooked and eaten (similar to snuff - or a poison antidote that doesn't come with the laxative's side effects) all would have made this little critters more meaningful. Hell, even making them a low-level inspiration that can be used without much prep (a stray chestnut type item for coastal regions) would've worked. Implementing them so that a player could walk over them would also have made them less irritating - but instead we got useless critters that are hard to pick up and get in the way.
-Poisonous mushrooms were meaningless - but again, not due to flaws in pre-existing systems, but because they added a nuisance in what was one of the few convenient systems for new players, and turned an uncommong-but-useful item (witch's hats) into a relatively useless item. Adding insult to injury, this update was supposed to be a prelude to beneficial effects, of which the poison was just a poorly-picked pilot - but the follow-on never appeared.

I'm not saying the existing systems don't need improvement. But blaming the failures of previous updates on the pre-existing systems indicates a lack of understanding in what went wrong, which will hamper efforts to right the ship.

The primary problem Salem is experiencing right now is an inability for most players to improve their characters and bases. Character development relies on cooked foods, and to improve cooked foods requires finding quality nodes of granite, lime, and water for each element. This is not a fun nor entertaining system, and does not present the players with meaningful choices - either you trade with someone who has found these nodes, or spend tens of mindless hours searching for a single node (or hundreds of hours searching for all of them). Base building is limited by the small variety of assets needed (mine/smelter/crusher/anvil/kilns/carp shop/drying racks/leather tubs, and a place to throw your board piles) - and plenty of abandoned bases with most or all of these facilities in place exist all over the landscape.

Faithfully,

-Paul the Paymaster

This +100

The devs don't even know/play their own game good enough to know what works & not works... and thus implementing & changing things that shouldn't have changed.

[Tonkyhonk]

The devs don't even know/play their own game good enough to know what works & not works... and thus implementing & changing things that shouldn't have changed.

that just means you failed to convince devs.

[MagicManICT]

The devs don't even know/play their own game good enough to know what works & not works... and thus implementing & changing things that shouldn't have changed.

Do any devs ever obtain this level of knowledge of their game?

[Darwoth]

The devs don't even know/play their own game good enough to know what works & not works... and thus implementing & changing things that shouldn't have changed.

Do any devs ever obtain this level of knowledge of their game?

in every single game i have EVER played the developers were the most clueless as to how the game actually worked off paper, even in the "old days" when you would occasionally spot one of the developers characters running around in game just playing like normal.

[Tylan]

Good evening,

This bit does not inspire confidence:

08:56 loftar > I sure hope so, Urist. I think the changes improve the game a lot.
08:57 loftar > Not only in the current state of the game, either, but they also make it more meaningful to add new stuff in the future.
08:57 loftar > I think one of the primary reasons why it was starting to feel meaningless to add new stuff to Salem was because the previous systems made new content kind of meaningless.

I'd be curious what new stuff added to Salem felt "meaningless." It's been quite a while since we had new stuff, and the most recent updates were not hampered by previous systems, but by half-hearted design.

-Alchemy was indeed meaningless, but the problem was (and is) its implementation - a cyclical system which does not improve its output with each cycle is of no help to anyone.
-Frogs and crabs are relatively meaningless (although I have known some players to be fond of the new inspirational), because they don't have much of a use. Some sort of decoration item, cooking them to provide decent humor regeneration food, making them a component in some sort of augmented alchemy process, or making them provide some buff when cooked and eaten (similar to snuff - or a poison antidote that doesn't come with the laxative's side effects) all would have made this little critters more meaningful. Hell, even making them a low-level inspiration that can be used without much prep (a stray chestnut type item for coastal regions) would've worked. Implementing them so that a player could walk over them would also have made them less irritating - but instead we got useless critters that are hard to pick up and get in the way.
-Poisonous mushrooms were meaningless - but again, not due to flaws in pre-existing systems, but because they added a nuisance in what was one of the few convenient systems for new players, and turned an uncommong-but-useful item (witch's hats) into a relatively useless item. Adding insult to injury, this update was supposed to be a prelude to beneficial effects, of which the poison was just a poorly-picked pilot - but the follow-on never appeared.

I'm not saying the existing systems don't need improvement. But blaming the failures of previous updates on the pre-existing systems indicates a lack of understanding in what went wrong, which will hamper efforts to right the ship.

The primary problem Salem is experiencing right now is an inability for most players to improve their characters and bases. Character development relies on cooked foods, and to improve cooked foods requires finding quality nodes of granite, lime, and water for each element. This is not a fun nor entertaining system, and does not present the players with meaningful choices - either you trade with someone who has found these nodes, or spend tens of mindless hours searching for a single node (or hundreds of hours searching for all of them). Base building is limited by the small variety of assets needed (mine/smelter/crusher/anvil/kilns/carp shop/drying racks/leather tubs, and a place to throw your board piles) - and plenty of abandoned bases with most or all of these facilities in place exist all over the landscape.

Faithfully,

-Paul the Paymaster

How difficult it must have been to fit so much truth into a single post.

[jorb]

I'm not saying the existing systems don't need improvement. But blaming the failures of previous updates on the pre-existing systems indicates a lack of understanding in what went wrong, which will hamper efforts to right the ship.

I think you read a bit too much into what loftar actually said.

[Stormie]

I'm not saying the existing systems don't need improvement. But blaming the failures of previous updates on the pre-existing systems indicates a lack of understanding in what went wrong, which will hamper efforts to right the ship.

I think you read a bit too much into what loftar actually said.

Enlighten us Old Wise One.