Re: Compost Bin Purity: Oh crap, how do earthworms work?

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Re: Compost Bin Purity: Oh crap, how do earthworms work?

Postby Hans_Lemurson » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:32 am

Update: April 10/11th
Ok...input material no longer matters, but earthworm purity is now essential.
I do not have any numbers on this yet. Contributions requested!

Update: April 9th
Purity Trees will soon be ready for chopping. When they are, Purity Compost Bins can be created and the other half of the formula can be tested: Does Compost Bin purity get a diminishing modifier too, or just Humus?

Check Post #12 for instructions.

Update: April 4th

Rough formula: Out = ( (Inp/Mi) + Cb) / (1 + 1/Mi)

Inp = Input material's elemental compostion
Mi = Input material's Purity Multiplier
Cb = Compost Bin's elemental composition (All pre-update bins should be 25.00 across the board)

What this formula MEANS is that you take a weighted average of Compost purity and Bin purity, with the "weight" being the inverse of the purity.
To put it simply: More pure things have less "weight".

Still unknown:
-Why is there a minor but consistent error with this formula? It's good for the first two digits (the ones that matter), but the first decimal place is usually off.
-What effect will Purity-Bins have? Will higher bin purity reduce its relative weight?

Original post below:
**********************************
Humus purity is now affected by Compost Bin purity: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5685

Ok, here is what I need: Look into your compost bins at the elemental composition of the compost which was produced BEFORE the latest update, and the stuff produced AFTER.

In each bin, write down the Elemental Composition of the Old-Humus and that of the New Humus, and post them here.

Format: Salt / Merc / Sulf / Lead (use all 4 available digits. "25.00", not "25")

Data now, analysis later.
You don't have to be colorful like me, and screencaps will be fine too. We just need the numbers now while they are easy to get. When else will the comparison between Input and Output purity be so easy to measure?

I have 6 Compost Bins:
Bin #1a
24.35 / 25.53 / 24.84 / 25.28 - Old 1.00
24.68 / 25.26 / 24.92 / 25.13 - New 1.00

Bin #1b
24.36 / 25.53 / 24.83 / 25.28 - Old 1.00
24.68 / 25.26 / 24.92 / 25.14 - New 1.00

Bin #2a
25.34 / 30.82 / 22.59 / 21.25 - Old 1.06
25.16 / 27.81 / 23.84 / 23.19 - New 1.02

Bin #2b
25.31 / 30.72 / 22.65 / 21.33 - Old 1.06
25.15 / 27.76 / 23.87 / 23.23 - New 1.02

Bin #3
26.36 / 26.06 / 26.03 / 21.54 - Old 1.02
25.67 / 25.52 / 25.50 / 23.29 - New 1.00

Bin #4
17.97 / 44.25 / 19.92 / 17.87 - Old 1.60
22.36 / 32.23 / 23.09 / 22.33 - New 1.08


Preliminary analysis shows that it is NOT a linear recombination.
The Bin and Feed purities are not simply being averaged; something a little more complex is at work.

*****
Update: Include Purity-Multiplier for each kind of Humus.

I suspect it's

(Bin * (Feedstock_Purity_Multiplier) + Feedstock)
1 + Feedstock Purity Multiplier

Or, for an example for mercury in Bin#4:
(25.00 * 1.60) + 44.25 = 32.40
(1 + 1.60)

The new Mercury value is actually 32.23, but I think that's within the margin of error for the multiplication factor only showing 3 digits.
Last edited by Hans_Lemurson on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:39 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Compost Bin Purity: Time-sensitive Research, plz contrib

Postby Kandarim » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:01 am

I have a couple of inputs from my high purity bins:

95.16-1.42-1.09-2.35 (multiplier 8,88)
changed into
31.52-22.81-22.78-22.90 (multiplier unknown. threw it out)

0.77-97.16-0.81-1.27 (multiplier 9,33)
changed into
22.85-31.41-22.86-22.90 (multiplier 1.07)

Keep in mind that these bins aren't necessarily 0% pure: I built them with my own metal (although my bulk bars are only 7% pure, lead-based).

As it stands, though, the purity of compost bins IMMENSELY restricts the outcome purity of humus. Not like halving the multiplier, more like decimating it.
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Re: Compost Bin Purity: Time-sensitive Research, plz contrib

Postby Hans_Lemurson » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:51 am

Nails still have no purity after the update, so I think the purity should all come from wood. I think It's safe to assume that all existing compost bins are 25.00 across the board.

The formula of my current theory predicts that the 95.16-Salt(8.88x)humus would change into 32.10 Salt.
(95.16 + (25.00 * 8.88) ) / (1 + 8.88) = 32.10

It is again, slightly off, but it seems to have some decent predictive power.
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Re: Compost Bin Purity: Time-sensitive Research, plz contrib

Postby ysbryd » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:28 am

before 68.80/28.33/2,55/0.33 x4.65
after 32.23/25.54/21.30/20.93 x 1.10
:(
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Re: Compost Bin Purity: Time-sensitive Research, plz contrib

Postby Hans_Lemurson » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:24 am

ysbryd wrote:before 68.80/28.33/2,55/0.33 x4.65
after 32.23/25.54/21.30/20.93 x 1.10
:(

My formula predicts:
32.75 / 25.59 / 21.03 / 20.63
error of:
+0.52 / +0.05 / -0.27 / -0.30

Given that these errors are all proportional to the distance from 25, and that both the Real and Predicted compositions add up to 100, I believe my formula is correct, except for the multiplying factor. If you use a purity multiplier value that is slightly larger than what is stated, you should get closer to the real value. 5.05 instead of 4.65 gets you pretty darn close. I have no idea what accounts for the difference.

Also, the proportionality of the error suggests that the Compost Bin purity is 0%.
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Re: Compost Bin Purity: Time-sensitive Research, plz contrib

Postby Maxeusz » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:17 pm

I prefer formula: (x + 5x25,00)/6 + random = element
Where: random = const for a single compost bin

There some of mine compost bins:

3,90/18,50/24,80/52,81 --> 19,27/23,24/24,95/32,55
1,27/5,89/31,83/61,01 --> 20,29/21,21/26,35/32,15
96,43/2,98/0,00/0,60 --> 31,44/23,02/22,75/22,80

You can get purity factor from elements:
via Wiki

(salt^2+mercury^2+sulphur^2+lead^2)*12-2 = purity multiplier

for example 3,9/18,5/24,8/52,81
(0,0390^2+0,1850^2+0,2480^2+0,5281^2)*12-2 = 2,51
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Re: Compost Bin Purity: Time-sensitive Research, plz contrib

Postby Hans_Lemurson » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:25 pm

Trying out different formulas, I realized that these two formulas yield the same answer:
(B + Hin/M) / (1+(1/M) ) = Hout

(B*M + Hin) / (1 + M) = Hout

B = bin,
M = multiplier,
Hin = humus in,
Hout = humus Out

I had been hoping that dividing the input by the multiplier (instead of using it to increase the Bin's contribution) would minimize the calculation errors, but they turn out to be identical! Both formulas are mathematically equal. They both represent a weighted average of the Bin and Input humus where the relative contribution is scaled by the Input Humus' purity multiplier.

And they both give the same error factor. :(
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Re: Compost Bin Purity: Time-sensitive Research, plz contrib

Postby Sidran » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:14 am

Numbers are very strange. It seems, tho not sure, nails must be included somehow. Or our data is without necessary integrity.

These are Kandarim's values:

0.77-97.16-0.81-1.27 (multiplier 9,33) (my additon, purity: 92.57%)
changed into
22.85-31.41-22.86-22.90 (multiplier 1.07) (my additon, purity: 0,74%!)

My own data:

1.18-75.42-16.94-6.47 (multi: 5.22, purity: 46.91%)
changed into
21.44-32.53-23.8-22.24 (multi: 1.09, purity 1.05%)

with purity numbers its more obvious, Kandarim's bin seems to lower input values much more than my own (going from 92.57 to 0.74 vs my 46.91 to 1.05). I got better output for worse input.

So Ill include values for iron my nails for bin were made from:
7.17-36.92-21.34-34.57 (multi: 1.6779, purity: 7.53%)

Hope it helps somehow.
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Re: Compost Bin Purity: Time-sensitive Research, plz contrib

Postby Hans_Lemurson » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:11 am

I do not believe that previously existing materials were altered with this update. The no longer existent nails of a compost bin wouldn't suddenly remember the purity of the iron they were forged from weeks/months ago.

Also, if retroactive Iron Purity did affect the compost bins, then there would be a disproportionate bias in your humus towards a Salt Deficiency, which I do not see.

Furthermore, as far as I can tell, nails still don't have any purity associated with them, so I am dubious as to whether they would have any effect whatsoever on the Compost.
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Re: Compost Bin Purity: Time-sensitive Research, plz contrib

Postby dageir » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:19 am

Im not sure how much work we should put into this considering new updates are coming in this area.
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