pClaim, tClaim, access, rights, defense - questions

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pClaim, tClaim, access, rights, defense - questions

Postby Taipion » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:20 pm

As some of those things changed over time, and many things are not clearly documented though they are crucial for building a team of different players in some cases, I try to gather as much as possible in this thread to generate a valuable resource.
Therefore, if there are other things and questions that are related to this and I forgot, feel free to add them! :)

Note: If you group with someone, they have your rights as long as you are in a group with them, so be careful with that!

Also note:
- The checkable right "manage claims" allows anyone who has it, to destroy the townbell right away, be careful with that!
- Letting the townbell run out of authority (silver) enables anyone who has the necessary skills learned, to become mayor if there is currently no mayor, even not-town-members can do that!
- Letting the townbell run out of authority (silver) enables anyone (town members who don't have the right to do so normally, non-members,...) to destroy the bell if a waste claim is active.
- Through a stealthy patch already some months ago, ALL authority objects (town bell, boundry stone, cross) are destroyable even when payed, all it needs is a waste claim (TBF)!

I.) pClaims and tClaims
1.) What is the general implication of using pClaims within a tClaim?
- It gives means to define "private" area within a town.
- Trespassing a tclaim is no crime, on a pclaim it is.
- Commiting waste (like, breaking walls) on a pclaim without permission is a crime and triggers defense, even if the pclaim is in a town where the attacker is full member.
- Pclaim permissions supersede tclaim permissions.
2.) For defense, if a brazier is both on a pClaim and tClaim, would it react to crimes that are inside the tClaim but outside the pClaim?
- It used to be different, but now braziers (and torchposts) should react to and punish all crimes regardless of where they are and where the crime was committed (if it was a crime = on claimed land and without permission).
3.) What is the answer to the opposite setup of the above question? - Brazier on tClaim but not on pClaim, crime happens on pClaim inside tClaim?
- See I.2.
4.) Does the setting "Claim private land" inside the town management allows to claim new land only, and/or extend existing pClaims owned by that citizen?
- Allows to set up a pClaim inside the town
- Allows to extend your own pClaim(s) inside the town area, without that skill you can NOT extend your own pClaim, so after having someone set up his pClaim, taking away that right prevents any further adjustment to the pClaim.
5.) What exactly allows the setting "Manage claims"? - extend existing claims, declaim, make new claims, extend the town claim with borderstones, ...?
- Manage claims allows to:
- remove pClaims whose claimstones are on the tClaim
- destroy the townbell with "destroy" action (!) (!) (!)
- build boundry stones and cross of st george
6.) Does "assign permissions" allow you to assign permissions that you do not have yourself? Does it allow you to assign new permissions to yourself?
- Does allow to assign and take away all permissions from everyone, you can not directly assign permissions to yourself though, but could with an alt.
7.) Can town members access the, or do anything on a pClaim they have no permission for, does this differ for trial/fully/mayor-members?
- The pclaim supersedes the tclaim, if they have appropriate permissions though, they could de-claim/remove the pclaim.
8.) If you group invite somone and you have a pClaim on the town, would that someone be able to use waste inside your pClaim? (...like bash the towns walls without causing crime if the pClaim covers those walls?)
- Yes, so be very careful, as always in salem!

II.) tClaim general things
1.) What rights do trial citizens have?
- They seem to have everything except waste. (and those check-able rights)
2.) What rights do full citizens have without any "checked" rights in town management?
- All rights including waste, except for those not checked.
3.) Is there any way to manage the right for "waste" actions on a tClaim? (I think the options in the management don't do that...)
- It seems the only "option" of control here is the trial/full membership, as well as pclaims, who do not forbid waste though but only render it a crime to do so (depending on rights given).

III.) pClaim general things
1.) Is it advisable to use pClaims inside tClaims, and why?
- Yes it is!
- There is apparently no downside to it, except for the cost of the pclaim
- It provides means to distribute area to individuals, or improve defense
2.) What would be an indication to not use pClaims inside tClaims?
- Cost
- "Equality" for all members
- It would prohibit non-members from entering, so it might not go well with the (dangerous) concepts of an "open town" or an "open trading area".
3.) What would be a reason to use pClaims inside tClaims?
- Security, rights management
- Defensive advantages

And important conclusion I draw from these infos is, that it is highly advisable to have a single pclaim cover ALL the town area AND extend over your walls by +1, this way, if someone were to lay siege to your town, he would need to commit trespassing before he can start beating at your walls, which then causes additional BB (black bile) drain, which adds up with braziers/TPs.

Furthermore it seems that this security measure is in contradiction to using pclaims for distribution and management of space inside a tclaim for individual members, as you (iirc) can't have pclaims next to each other, there needs to be a small gap in between. (Please correct me if I am wrong with this!)


Did I forget anything important, or even have errors in here? - If so, then tell me!
If there are things/question/statements that should be added here, tell me!
Last edited by Taipion on Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:04 am, edited 15 times in total.
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Re: pClaim, tClaim, acces, rights, defense - questions

Postby Taipion » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:58 pm

Did I ask the wrong questions, if I did, please help me to get this right, I believe this is vital information for most players.
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Re: pClaim, tClaim, acces, rights, defense - questions

Postby KruskDaMangled » Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:26 pm

Taipion wrote:Did I ask the wrong questions, if I did, please help me to get this right, I believe this is vital information for most players.


Good questions, I think the answers might be complicated, and people also might not know for sure, or if they have, might not want to share. It is a little complicated.
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Re: pClaim, tClaim, acces, rights, defense - questions

Postby Heffernan » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:30 pm

Taipion wrote:As some of those things changed over time, and many things are not clearly documented though they are crucial for building a team of different players in some cases, I try to gather as much as possible in this thread to generate a valuable resource.
Therefore, if there are other things and questions that are related to this and I forgot, feel free to add them! :)

I.) pClaims and tClaims
1.) What is the general implication of using pClaims within a tClaim?
(I would assume it gives a good tool for distributing space and managing access.)
2.) For defense, if a brazier is both on a pClaim and tClaim, would it react to crimes that are inside the tClaim but outside the pClaim?
3.) What is the answer to the opposite setup of the above question? - Brazier on tClaim but not on pClaim, crime happens on pClaim inside tClaim?
4.) Does the setting "Claim private land" inside the town management allows to claim new land only, and/or extend existing pClaims owned by that citizen?
5.) What exactly allows the setting "Manage claims"? - extend existing claims, declaim, make new claims, extend the town claim with borderstones, ...?
6.) Does "assign permissions" allow you to assign permissions that you do not have yourself? Does it allow you to assign new permissions to yourself?
7.) Can town members access the, or do anything on a pClaim they have no permission for, does this differ for trial/fully/mayor-members?

II.) tClaim general things
1.) What rights do trial citizens have?
2.) What rights do full citizens have without any "checked" rights in town management?
3.) Is there any way to manage the right for "waste" actions on a tClaim? (I think the options in the management don't do that...)

III.) pClaim general things
1.) Is it advisable to use pClaims inside tClaims, and why?
2.) What would be an indication to not use pClaims inside tClaims?
3.) What would be a reason to use pClaims inside tClaims?


I will compile an set of answers to these questions from posts in this thread, so it is easy to read/find what you want to know.
If there are things/question/statements that should be added here, tell me!


1.1 if you trespass a Tclaim and open the doors (unkeyed) u dont commit crimes as raider so ppl use a pclaim since trespassing that is a crime and triggers defense, also a Pclaim should always be on the townbell incase it runs out of silver so noone can take a walled townbell when they have doors and defense without committing crimes
1.2 Braziers react to all sort of crime, even when the brazier is outside pclaim and tclaim but within range of crime
1.3 same
1.4 you can onl extend pclaims that you own not if its owned by someone else
1.5 yes extend it with borderstones
1.6 not sure
1.7 nope, you have to set permissions on a pclaim else townmembers have no rights

2.1-2.3 not sure

3.1 check 1.1
2.1 none
3.1 see 1.1
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Re: pClaim, tClaim, acces, rights, defense - questions

Postby Tulgarath » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:10 am

Also, if grouped, the person has the same rights as you do on the claim. ..i think that's how it works.
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Re: pClaim, tClaim, acces, rights, defense - questions

Postby Taipion » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:07 pm

Heffernan wrote:
1.1 if you trespass a Tclaim and open the doors (unkeyed) u dont commit crimes as raider so ppl use a pclaim since trespassing that is a crime and triggers defense, also a Pclaim should always be on the townbell incase it runs out of silver so noone can take a walled townbell when they have doors and defense without committing crimes
1.2 Braziers react to all sort of crime, even when the brazier is outside pclaim and tclaim but within range of crime
1.3 same
1.4 you can onl extend pclaims that you own not if its owned by someone else
1.5 yes extend it with borderstones
1.6 not sure
1.7 nope, you have to set permissions on a pclaim else townmembers have no rights

2.1-2.3 not sure

3.1 check 1.1
2.1 none
3.1 see 1.1


Thanks! That's a start at least. :-)

Tulgarath wrote:Also, if grouped, the person has the same rights as you do on the claim. ..i think that's how it works.


Interesting, I gotta test that...
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Re: pClaim, tClaim, acces, rights, defense - questions

Postby Flink » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:16 pm

for 2.1 to 2.3

2.1 trial membership allows minimal work to be done in the tclaim : they can do normal work : chop trees, gather food, plant crops, build stuff, but they cant modify terrain, pave

2.2 its basically the same as trial membership, but can do anything in town (excepted the permission that can be checked)

2.3 a normal member can destroy anything in town, but there will be no soak reduction, which mean you can try to destroy stuff, but without high plhegm or a pclaim it will take a while to do
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Re: pClaim, tClaim, acces, rights, defense - questions

Postby TotalyMeow » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:47 pm

Removed a derail and some wrong information. Sorry guys, I shouldn't have been cavalier about it.

To make up for it, here are a few answers to your questions:

1. Pclaims within tclaims allow for pclaim permissions to be used in them, which can be beneficial as it is a way to differentiate who can do what, where. Or it can just be because everyone wants their private area that their townmates can't 'invade'.

2. Braziers should react to all crimes now, no matter where they are.

3. Same.

4. I forget, I haven't done much with that sort of thing.

5. Manage claims gives all those permissions iirc. I could be wrong though.

6. You can only assign permissions that you have and I think you need permission to 'assign permissions'. The mayor is ultimately the only one with the power to do everything.

7. Pclaim supersedes town claim.

1. I forget again, exactly what, but only the most basic rights that don't involve any sort of waste action. So, they might be able to party someone into the town and let them steal stuff, but the moment someone closes/blocks a gate, the raiders are trapped because they can't waste it. A risky enough thing that we hoped it would make the mechanic useful.

2. Geez, I haven't been responsible for a town in so long, I hardly remember. I think it's the same perms you get with full pclaim access.

3. Trial Membership denies waste.

1. It entirely depends on how you want to structure your town, but I do think a lot of people like to have pclaims in town claims.

2. It's certainly less costly.

3. See 1.1.

And remember, if you party someone, they get your permissions, so don't accept party invites from raiders.
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Re: pClaim, tClaim, acces, rights, defense - questions

Postby Taipion » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:25 am

Thanks for all that info!
I will compile it into something more readable as soon as I got some time.
Also I guess some of this information would be good to have on the wiki as welll...

TotalyMeow wrote:And remember, if you party someone, they get your permissions, so don't accept party invites from raiders.


I must have missed that, this really is an important thing to know!

Does this include ALL rights and permissions?
Meaning town permissions as well or only pclaim permissions?
Does everybody get everybody's rights in a team?

So if someone stands at my door, assume only pclaim and no town, and I accept team invite, he can waste my walls without crime?


Also:
Nice to see that the brazier issue is solved, I remember it working different, but if they now react to all crimes, disregarding their own position, this truly encourages the use of pclaims in towns to make communities possible even when trust is not absolute.


New, kinda important question:
Situation:
- A town member owns a pclaim that covers some part of the town area
- It was said pclaim supersedes tclaim.
- It was said team members have your rights.

If that townmember was to team-invite somone, would that somone now be able to commit waste on the town area that is covered by said pclaim without being a town member at all?
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Re: pClaim, tClaim, acces, rights, defense - questions

Postby Taipion » Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:13 pm

*bump*

Updated, added some info I tested myself, also still 2 questions to be answered:

First question: If you have a pClaim inside the town, and group with someone that is no town member, do they then have the rights to do waste on the part of the town that is covered by your pClaim? (...like bashing the towns walls without causing crime and without waste claim if they are covered by your pClaim?)

Second question: What enables someone to destroy a townbell?
I know "manage claims" enables you to do so.
For a non-town-member, is a waste claim enough, or does the bell need to be out of authority(= is unpayed), too?
(I know it used to be so that the bells needed to be unpayed, but so much changed, so I better ask.)
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